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Why I now reject climate politics nearly entirely


fides' Jack

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*sigh*

Another day, another snow storm in my little country... 

This is our fourth or fifth storm this year, and its not even Hallowed Eve's yet...

I for one can't wait for global warming to kick in....  BRING IT!!!

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1 hour ago, Didacus said:

*sigh*

Another day, another snow storm in my little country... 

This is our fourth or fifth storm this year, and its not even Hallowed Eve's yet...

I for one can't wait for global warming to kick in....  BRING IT!!!

Bad news - weather mainly gets extremer, so chances are that those storms will incline in intensity and frequency. 

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33 minutes ago, Lea said:

Bad news - weather mainly gets extremer, so chances are that those storms will incline in intensity and frequency. 

Right now I'd welcome a hurricane without snow before another flippin' snow flake...

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I guess one of the major divides in the culture war is our trust/distrust of authority. Ironically people on the right are more skeptical of many of our cultural institutions that are supposed to have some type of authority. The media and higher education are two primary examples.

As much as you want to wave your fists and cite your sources, you are never going to get anywhere until you understand this distrust, and you understand why it's there. The most revered bastions of academia are basically hedge funds disguised as places of education, worth I don't know how many billions. And their primary job is making $$$ not making the world a better place.

Additionally the ultra-progressive, post-modern, critical method-y, neo-marxist ideology that permeates throughout these institutions only causes more suspicion. I would like to believe the natural sciences are immune to this croutons, )and from the little evidence I have it seems like it has escaped although it is under attack by critical theory), but again you need to understand the visceral effect this has on regular folks.

And then you look at big-tech, that's yet another source of mistrust. And any honest person can see why silicone valley doesn't earn the trust of regular red-blooded Americans.

Also people don't see why we have to suffer if other major players aren't going to play ball, like China and India for example.

It's very clear why there is such a cultural divide on this issue. And I don't see an amicable solution coming any time soon. I generally believe in climate change sure, but I don't think anyone has the solution. Even if someone or some group had total control (I hope anyone sees this as a bad thing) and could enforce the "right answer" I have very little faith that anyone has the "right answer."

So keep shaking your fists and citing sources. As much as you would like it to be science isn't always pure in practice, and we have so many fundamental disagreements on how man is to conduct himself in this life that I doubt you'll get anywhere.

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On 10/28/2020 at 10:46 AM, Didacus said:

Right now I'd welcome a hurricane without snow before another flippin' snow flake...

My parents abandoned Chicago when I was a child.  Family lives in Illinois and Minnesota.  We’ve both visited north/south at weather extremes.    

I’ve been through many hurricanes and decades of Florida summers.   All better than a single week of being snowed in. 

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  • 3 weeks later...
On 8/20/2019 at 2:16 PM, fides' Jack said:

I'm convinced now that not only is it all a giant scam, but it's actually satanic in origin.

Here's the main premise of the argument:

1. Climate change is occurring (I agree with this)
2. It's largely man-made (I agree we've affected it to an extent, but all the most credible evidence suggests that it's an extremely small extent)
3. It's going to cause all sorts of other bad things (I definitely disagree with this one)

first off thought I'd say I found this board/thread because for awhile I've been an irregular visitor to the catholic answers forum (which I just found out is closing down at the end of 2020)

anyway first started posting at catholic answers after going to a faith and science conference and was dismayed at the lack of scientific understanding about the issue of climate change

not a formally working climate scientist, but do have a back ground in physics and became interested in the topic after a seminar class many decades ago

the thing about climate change is it does not neatly fall into any one traditional field of science (i.e. physics, chemistry or biology) but understanding the issue requires a good basic grasp of physics, chemistry, biology, etc., etc. etc!

another barrier one needs to understand w/ the issue of climate change is,… given human nature and the aversion to directly facing unpleasant subjects, one must also admit there is a psychological aspect that somehow needs to be acknowledged (too often people over estimate their abilities, which as I learned going to a catholic high school, should be considered a sin of pride)

people-overestimate-abilities.jpg

https://www.catholic.com/encyclopedia/pride

long story short, the climate is changing and looking at the basic science mankind is responsible for the change in the "system" specifically adding 1500+ gigatons of CO2 since the start of the industrial revolution

given the pandemic, have taken time off as an opportunity to learn how to use image software to try and show people who don't have a formal science background why scientists are concerned,... in the startup world there is something called a "pitch deck" so created a linkable PDF presentation and took out a domain name

http://www.ThereIsNoPlanet-B.org

since you and perhaps others might think climate change is a scam that is satanic in nature,... perhaps consider the story of Eve being temped by the snake to eat the apple in the garden of eden,... where the snake and apple is social the temptation to burn fossil fuel (that has consequence that people don't understand and don't want to think about)

 

 

 

 

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2 hours ago, ArciMoto said:

first off thought I'd say I found this board/thread because for awhile I've been an irregular visitor to the catholic answers forum (which I just found out is closing down at the end of 2020)

anyway first started posting at catholic answers after going to a faith and science conference and was dismayed at the lack of scientific understanding about the issue of climate change

not a formally working climate scientist, but do have a back ground in physics and became interested in the topic after a seminar class many decades ago

the thing about climate change is it does not neatly fall into any one traditional field of science (i.e. physics, chemistry or biology) but understanding the issue requires a good basic grasp of physics, chemistry, biology, etc., etc. etc!

another barrier one needs to understand w/ the issue of climate change is,… given human nature and the aversion to directly facing unpleasant subjects, one must also admit there is a psychological aspect that somehow needs to be acknowledged (too often people over estimate their abilities, which as I learned going to a catholic high school, should be considered a sin of pride)

people-overestimate-abilities.jpg

https://www.catholic.com/encyclopedia/pride

long story short, the climate is changing and looking at the basic science mankind is responsible for the change in the "system" specifically adding 1500+ gigatons of CO2 since the start of the industrial revolution

given the pandemic, have taken time off as an opportunity to learn how to use image software to try and show people who don't have a formal science background why scientists are concerned,... in the startup world there is something called a "pitch deck" so created a linkable PDF presentation and took out a domain name

http://www.ThereIsNoPlanet-B.org

since you and perhaps others might think climate change is a scam that is satanic in nature,... perhaps consider the story of Eve being temped by the snake to eat the apple in the garden of eden,... where the snake and apple is social the temptation to burn fossil fuel (that has consequence that people don't understand and don't want to think about)

 

 

 

 

Welcome to Phatmass. You sound smart. 

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7 hours ago, ArciMoto said:

first off thought I'd say I found this board/thread because for awhile I've been an irregular visitor to the catholic answers forum (which I just found out is closing down at the end of 2020)

anyway first started posting at catholic answers after going to a faith and science conference and was dismayed at the lack of scientific understanding about the issue of climate change

not a formally working climate scientist, but do have a back ground in physics and became interested in the topic after a seminar class many decades ago

the thing about climate change is it does not neatly fall into any one traditional field of science (i.e. physics, chemistry or biology) but understanding the issue requires a good basic grasp of physics, chemistry, biology, etc., etc. etc!

another barrier one needs to understand w/ the issue of climate change is,… given human nature and the aversion to directly facing unpleasant subjects, one must also admit there is a psychological aspect that somehow needs to be acknowledged (too often people over estimate their abilities, which as I learned going to a catholic high school, should be considered a sin of pride)

people-overestimate-abilities.jpg

https://www.catholic.com/encyclopedia/pride

long story short, the climate is changing and looking at the basic science mankind is responsible for the change in the "system" specifically adding 1500+ gigatons of CO2 since the start of the industrial revolution

given the pandemic, have taken time off as an opportunity to learn how to use image software to try and show people who don't have a formal science background why scientists are concerned,... in the startup world there is something called a "pitch deck" so created a linkable PDF presentation and took out a domain name

http://www.ThereIsNoPlanet-B.org

since you and perhaps others might think climate change is a scam that is satanic in nature,... perhaps consider the story of Eve being temped by the snake to eat the apple in the garden of eden,... where the snake and apple is social the temptation to burn fossil fuel (that has consequence that people don't understand and don't want to think about)

 

 

 

 

Nice personal attack. I hope it makes you feel superior to the plebes.

I accept that burning carbon may cause climate change. I have no issue with that. I am not a climate scientist, so i defer to The Experts^tm. Even if its not, I would rather not live next to a coal power plant or diesel powered rig. 

Here is the sticking point. We are told that this is an existential CRISIS. We will go extinct and ruin the planet if we don't go net zero (or maybe negative?) in the next ten years. Actually we are flooped because of china and india. But ignore that. The same party that tells us it is literally the end of the world has consistently sabotaged the best carbon zero energy source available to us. 

There has been a solution for decades. But they dont want that solution. Instead of facilitating the construction of next gen nuclear power plants all over the country, they want you to eat soy and crickets

floop you 

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22 hours ago, ardillacid said:

Nice personal attack. I hope it makes you feel superior to the plebes.

I accept that burning carbon may cause climate change. I have no issue with that. I am not a climate scientist, so i defer to The Experts^tm. Even if its not, I would rather not live next to a coal power plant or diesel powered rig. 

Here is the sticking point. We are told that this is an existential CRISIS. We will go extinct and ruin the planet if we don't go net zero (or maybe negative?) in the next ten years. Actually we are flooped because of china and india. But ignore that. The same party that tells us it is literally the end of the world has consistently sabotaged the best carbon zero energy source available to us. 

There has been a solution for decades. But they dont want that solution. Instead of facilitating the construction of next gen nuclear power plants all over the country, they want you to eat soy and crickets

floop you 

huh,... ever hear "envy" is one the seven deadly sins? 

https://catholicstand.com/immoderate-desires-4-envy/

https://catholicexchange.com/ten-tips-to-conquer-the-sin-of-envy

I say this because truth be told that was my first impression given going to university to get a physics degree isn't the easiest path to take, nor is it a walk in the park to understand what causes climate change AND grasp the risk it poses to humanity

this is because it requires years of learning various basics skills (which build on one another), then one has to be able to think critically and be able to use math to show all the pieces of the puzzle fit together

there was a survey done in my home town of san diego to see what level of understanding there was in the general public about the scientific mechanism that causes climate change,... sadly the findings in the study were zero individuals were able to correctly give the right answer

actually thinking the findings were a fluke, did my own informal poll (at a tech startup conference and at an environment group meetup) on the topic of scientific knowledge about the mechanism of the so called "green house effect" AND sadly confirmed the findings in a published paper (which found that there essentially zero understanding of the mechanisms that cause climate change in the public at large)

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/tops.12187

fact of the matter is, climate change is not formally taught in elementary, middle or high school AND people (which includes school teachers) have basically zero scientific understanding about climate change

never took a formal psychology class but from what I gather its human nature to fear (and/or ignore) what people don't understand,... think of it this way if an individual were thrown into the a jungle and they hear an unfamiliar shuffling in the bushes, to play it safe they would run the opposite direction

as I mentioned in the OP understanding climate change requires a good basic understanding of various fields of science AND it also requires the psychological ability to over come fear OR be curious and persistent enough to look deeply into the issue

didn't post as a personal attack against "plebes" as you said,... posted the info to make clear that I have necessary "talents" so to speak (i.e. a formal hard science education) along w/ being curious enough to learn how things are generally interrelated WRT climate change

WRT the next generation nukes,... all commercial nuke generators are variations of water boilers

here in the USA there is no "standard" design which makes them even more expensive (and out of reach) 

France on the other hand kinda has cookie cutter nukes along w/ a political will for nuke power

https://www.world-nuclear.org/information-library/country-profiles/countries-a-f/france.aspx

then there is the disposal problem of spent fuel,... there was a plan decades ago to collect all the waste at yucca mountain (but that idea was shot down by politicians who are intent on killing the issue)

https://pvtimes.com/news/nevada-senators-push-for-zero-funding-for-yucca-mountain-92543/

basically we have a situation in the USA where some pretty poor management of nuke power plants (in my neck of the woods) leaves waste literally right on the beach with no long term plan

https://voiceofoc.org/2020/11/annual-high-tide-spurs-concerns-about-future-safety-of-san-onofre-nuclear-waste-stock-near-south-oc/

 

On 11/28/2020 at 4:06 PM, dUSt said:

Welcome to Phatmass. You sound smart.

growing up my parents emphasized the fact that an education is something that once you have it, it can't be taken away or lost

they also sent me to catholic schools hoping to reinforce moral teachings,... looking back I guess they kinda knew what they were doing

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Given that scientists can't even handle the pandemic effectively, why should we even think that they can do anything to change the planet's atmosphere. Planet mother earth laughs at the scientists who think they can. 

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On 12/1/2020 at 5:25 AM, MarkRome said:

Given that scientists can't even handle the pandemic effectively, why should we even think that they can do anything to change the planet's atmosphere. Planet mother earth laughs at the scientists who think they can. 

a scientist looks for the cause of some effect,... in the case of climate change (way back in 1976) a paper was published showing that ice ages occur because of changes in the earth's orbit over long time periods (tens to hundred of thousands of years)

basically an ice age happens when less sunlight reaches the earths surface (IOW when the earth is physically farther away from the sun for long periods of time, things cool way down,... AND when the earth is physically closer to the sun for long periods of time, things warm up)

the second major factor that determines the earth's climate is the amount of greenhouse gases in the atmosphere,... this is because greenhouse gases trap infrared radiation (which in turn cause various knock on effects)

www.ThereIsNoPlanet-b.org

most people don't think about the fact that the earth and moon (in the grand scheme of things) are about the same distance away from the sun, BUT the moon has no atmosphere, so the average temperature is lower than the earth (which has an atmosphere)

as I see things it isn't scientists that can't even handle the pandemic effectively,... the problem all too often it is political leadership, partisan political supporters along with various business interests that wish to keep the status quo and/or want to stay at the top of the heap

ever notice that all too often political leadership and various business interests tell people want they want to hear? TRUMP for example mentioned years before he was elected president that climate change is a hoax and some group was to blame, then there are fossil fuel business interests that wish to keep the status quo so they deny any problem exists

as I mentioned a scientist looks for the cause of some effect,... AND the simple truth is climate change is caused by changes in earth's orbit and the amount of greenhouse gas in the atmosphere (which traps infrared energy)

since a picture is worth a thousand words created a graphic image based on facts that tells an interesting story AND can be fact checked

a94ce426d95fdac959e65c0a292c965a560d0b21

bottom line,... climate change deniers can ignore that mankind has changed the earth's climate BUT simple truth is, earth's changing climate will not ignore climate change deniers

 

 

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