Purgatory And Time

[Philippe]

yes but ur soul can only change for the better in purgatory... if ur in purgatory u will be in heaven someday

[blovedwolfofgod]

It depends on what you mean by "state of the soul." We will spend eternity growing closer to God. In that sense, our souls are becoming ever more beautiful. If we recieve incorruptibility from the infinite Being, then theoretically, we will spend our time knowing God more. Because He is infinite and cannot be contained in Heaven and earth, then it stands to reason that He cannot be contained by the Human mind even if its glorified. God is being uniting Himself to us in salvation and redemption, but we are still created beings. If God is infinite, I think we would have to be infinite as well in order to comprehend Him. So we will probably spend eternity trying to wrap our minds around God which would take an eternity to do. So I think that the state of our souls would be changing for all eternity becoming more beautiful than ever.

I could be wrong though. Anything is possible for God. We could just reach our final state in Heaven where we fully comprehend and understand and our minds can contain the Glory of God.

You could also be defining "state of the soul" as damned or saved. Hehe.

[qfnol31]

I meant the latter of your definitions.

[IcePrincessKRS]

[quote name='Dave' date='Jul 2 2004, 04:33 PM'] That version of the Sabbatine Privilege, where Our Lady will deliver people from purgatory on the Saturday after their death, turned out to be false. [/quote]
Really? If you could provide documentation that would be cool. I read that the Sabbatine Privelege was not extended to the scapular medal but only to the cloth scapulars, I hadn't heard/read that it was totally false. (Not that I'm basing my salvation on trying to obtain the SP, lol I would hope that I'd be a little more practical and use all things available to work my way towards salvation, I just want to know for curiositys sake. )

[IcePrincessKRS]

Oh, I think I found what Dave was talking about! Am I reading it wrong, because it almost seems to me that at the end they later granted approval of the SP.....???

[url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/13289b.htm"]http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/13289b.htm[/url]

[quote]The name Sabbatine Privilege is derived from the apocryphal Bull "Sacratissimo uti culmine" of John XXII, 3 March, 1322. In this Bull the pope is made to declare that the Mother of God appeared to him, and most urgently recommended to him the Carmelite Order and its confratres and consorores. The Blessed Virgin asked that John, as Christ's representative on earth, should ratify the indulgences which He had already granted in heaven (a plenary indulgence for the members of the Carmelite Order and a partial indulgence, remitting the third part of the temporal punishment due to their sins, for the members of the confraternity); she herself would graciously descend on the Saturday (Sabbath after their death and liberate and conduct to heaven all who were in purgatory. Then follow the conditions which the confratres and consorores must fulfill. At the end of the Bull the pope declares:


Istam ergo sanctam Indulgentiam accepto, roboro et in terris confirmo, sicut, propter merita Virginis Matris, gratiose Jesus Christus concessit in coelis
(This holy indulgence I therefore accept; I confirm and ratify it on earth, just as Jesus Christ has graciously granted it in heaven on account of the merits of the Virgin Mother).

Our first information of this Bull is derived from a work of the Carmelite Balduinus Leersius ("Collectaneum exemplorum et miraculorum" in "Bibliotheca Carmelit.", I, Orleans, 1752, p. 210), who died in 1483. The authenticity of the Bull was keenly contested especially in the seventeenth century, but was vigorously defended by the Carmelites. The chief opponents of its authenticity were Joannnes Launoy and the Bollandist, Daniel Papebroch, both of whom published works against it. Today it is universally regarded by scholars as inauthentic, even the "Monumenta histor. Carmel." of the Carmelite B. Zimmerman (I, Lérins, 1907, pp. 356-63) joining in rejecting it.

In 1379, in consequence of the hostility still shown to their order and especially to its name, the Carmelites besought Urban VI to grant an indulgence of 3 years and 3 quarantines to all the faithful who designated them and their order "Ordinem et Fratres B. Mariae Genetricis Dei de Monte Carmeli" (Bullar. Carmelit. I, 141); this was granted by Urban on 26 April, 1379. It is difficult to understand why, instead of asking for this indulgence, they did not appeal to the old promise and the recent "Bulla sabbatina", if the scapular was then known and the promise to St. Simon Stock and this Bull were genuine and incontestable. While the Bull of John XXII was ratified by some later popes in the sixteenth century (cf. Bullar. Carmelit., II, 47, 141), neither the Bull itself in its wording nor its general contents were thereby declared authentic and genuine. On the contrary, the ratification by Gregory XIII on 18 September, 1577 (Bullar. Carmelit., II, 196), must be interpreted quite in the sense of the later Decree of the Holy Office. This Decree, which appeared in 1613, expresses no opinion concerning the genuineness of the Bull, but confines itself to declaring what the Carmelites may preach of its contents. The Bull forbids the painting of pictures representing, in accordance with the wording of the Bull, the Mother of God descending into purgatory (cum descensione beatae Virginis ad animas in Purgatorio liberandas). It must be also remembered that the latest authentic summary of indulgences of the Carmelite Order of 31 July, 1907 (Acta S. Sedis, XL, 753 sqq.), approved by the Congregation of Indulgences, says nothing either of the Bull of John XXII, of the indulgences granted by him, or of the Sabbatine privilege of the Carmelites. To learn the meaning and importance of the Sabbatine privilege, we may turn only to the above-mentioned Decree of the Holy Office. It was inserted in its entirety (except for the words forbidding the painting of the pictures) into the list of the indulgences and privileges of the Confraternity of the Scapular of Mount Carmel.

We reproduce here the whole passage dealing with the Sabbatine privilege, as it appears in the summary approved by the Congregation of Indulgences on 4 July, 1908. It is noteworthy that the Bull of John XXII, which was still mentioned in the previous summary approved on 1 December, 1866, is no longer referred to (cf. "Rescript. authent. S.C. Indulg.", Ratisbon, 1885, p. 475). Among the privileges, which are mentioned after the indulgences, the following occurs in the first place: "The privilege of Pope John XXII, commonly [vulgo] known as the Sabbatine, which was approved and confirmed by Clement VII ("Ex clementi", 12 August 1530), St. Pius V ("Superna dispositione", 18 Feb., 1566), Gregory XIII ("Ut laudes", 18 Sept., 1577), and others, and also by the Holy Roman General Inquisition under Paul V on 20 January, 1613, in a Decree to the following effect:


It is permitted to the Carmelite Fathers to preach that the Christian people may piously believe in the help which the souls of brothers and members, who have departed this life in charity, have worn in life the scapular, have ever observed chastity, have recited the Little Hours [of the Blessed Virgin], or, if they cannot read, have observed the fast days of the Church, and have abstained from flesh meat on Wednesdays and Saturdays (except when Christmas falls on such days), may derive after death -- especially on Saturdays, the day consecrated by the Church to the Blessed Virgin -- through the unceasing intercession of Mary, her pious petitions, her merits, and her special protection.
With this explanation and interpretation, the Sabbatine privilege no longer presents any difficulties, and Benedict XIV adds his desire that the faithful should rely on it (Opera omnia, IX, Venice, 1767, pp. 197 sqq.). Even apart from the Bull and the tradition or legend concerning the apparition and promise of the Mother of God the interpretation of the Decree cannot be contested.

The Sabbatine privilege thus consists essentially in the early liberation from purgatory, through the special intercession and petition of Mary, which she graciously exercises in favour of her devoted servants preferentially -- as we may assume -- on the day consecrated to her, Saturday. Furthermore, the conditions for the gaining of the privilege are of such a kind as justify a special trust in the assistance of Mary. It is especially required of all who wish to share in the privilege that they faithfully preserve their chastity, and recite devoutly each day the Little Hours of the Blessed Virgin. However, all those who are bound to read their Breviary, fulfil the obligation of reciting the Little Hours by reading their Office. Persons who cannot read must (instead of reciting the Little Hours) observe all the fasts prescribed by the Church as they are kept in their home diocese or place of residence, and must in addition abstain from flesh meat on all Wednesdays and Saturdays of the year, except when Christmas falls on one of these days. The obligation to read the Little Hours and to abstain from flesh meat on Wednesday and Saturday may on important grounds be changed for other pious works; the faculty to sanction this change was granted to all confessors by Leo XIII in the Decree of the Congregation of Indulgences of 11 (14) June, 1901.
[/quote]

Edited July 5, 2004 by IcePrincessKRS

[Dave]

Again, it's not the Sabbatine Privilege itself that is false but rather the particular version of it that claims Our Lady would release from purgatory the Saturday after their death those who faithfully wore her scapular.

[thicke]

[quote name='Dave' date='Jul 3 2004, 11:06 PM'] Again, it's not the Sabbatine Privilege itself that is false but rather the particular version of it that claims Our Lady would release from purgatory the Saturday after their death those who faithfully wore her scapular. [/quote]
Again, provide documentation. This seems to contradict the article IcePrincess posted from the Catholic encyclopedia.

[Dave]

IcePrincess already provided documentation. Actually, I should've used different wording ... as the article said, the supposed bull that has the Sabbatine Privilege on it is apocryphal. Thus, I'd say there's a very good chance that the promise of being released from purgatory the Saturday after your death is untrue. However, it is perfectly logical that Our Lady would help those who wore her scapular faithfully when in purgatory, especially on Saturdays. But as for specific promises like the one in that alleged bull, we have no concrete evidence of that.

[thicke]

So we actually agree that the version of the Sabatine priv that has Mary coming down to Purgatory every Saturday may or may not not be true. It isn't definitely false, but also isn't definitely true. It's just something you have to take on faith. At the same there is definitely a great privilege to be won by following the requests of Our Lady of Mt. Carmel with regard to the brown scapular.

[Guest JeffCR07]

Just to return to the initial topic for a moment:

I would first like to point out everything that the Magisterium has defined with regards to Purgatory:

[quote]1031 The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned. The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire:

As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come.[/quote]

[quote]1498 Through indulgences the faithful can obtain the remission of temporal punishment resulting from sin for themselves and also for the souls in Purgatory. [/quote]

[quote]1475 In the communion of saints, "a perennial link of charity exists between the faithful who have already reached their heavenly home, those who are expiating their sins in purgatory and those who are still pilgrims on earth. between them there is, too, an abundant exchange of all good things." In this wonderful exchange, the holiness of one profits others, well beyond the harm that the sin of one could cause others. Thus recourse to the communion of saints lets the contrite sinner be more promptly and efficaciously purified of the punishments for sin. [/quote]

[quote]1472 To understand this doctrine and practice of the Church, it is necessary to understand that sin has a double consequence. Grave sin deprives us of communion with God and therefore makes us incapable of eternal life, the privation of which is called the "eternal punishment" of sin. On the other hand every sin, even venial, entails an unhealthy attachment to creatures, which must be purified either here on earth, or after death in the state called Purgatory. This purification frees one from what is called the "temporal punishment" of sin. These two punishments must not be conceived of as a kind of vengeance inflicted by God from without, but as following from the very nature of sin. A conversion which proceeds from a fervent charity can attain the complete purification of the sinner in such a way that no punishment would remain.[/quote]

This having been said, Tradition, and the opinion of many Saints, is that time does exist in Purgatory, though not in the same way as it does here.

There is a story of a man who promised to have 3 masses said for his best friend when he died. One each sunday for three weeks following the death of his friend, the promise was kept. At the end of Mass on the third sunday, he had a vision in which his friend appeared to him, asking why it took him so long to say the masses, for he was in Purgatory for 3 years rather than weeks.

True or not, it illustrates the idea that time exists in a way that we do not understand. What we [i]do[/i] understand, however, is that the souls in Purgatory can benefit through our prayers.

- Your Brother in Christ, Jeff