Pastor Ed Rice.... Another Email To Me.

[Dave]

Thanks, Jake, for the compliment and the prayers! And Steve, you're in rare form today! :lol:

[ironmonk]

Dave,

Great email... maybe a few others could email him and ask him to take the challenge.. that is prove the Catechism wrong.

God Bless, Your Servant in Christ,

ironmonk

[Dave]

Thanks, bro :D

[ironmonk]

The latest...

-----Original Message-----

From: Ed Rice [mailto:edrice4@linkny.com]

Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2003 8:41 AM

To: irishmax@tampabay.rr.com

Subject: Re: Back on line with katholic question

Ok, we are settled on who the source of eternal life is. You didn't touch the question which actually addresses the attaining of eternal life. I have it, and "The Spirit itself beareth witness with (my) spirit". I know that I have (present perfect tense) eternal life, now. The good news of the Gospel is that "you can know too! Ask your priest, evaluate the scripture, investigate his error. No lie. " He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son. And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life." (I John 5) No lie, you can KNOW.

-----Original Message-----

From: Max [mailto:irishmax@tampabay.rr.com]

Sent: Monday, October 20, 2003 6:55 PM

To: 'Ed Rice'

Subject: RE: Back on line with katholic question

Dear Ed,

Why do you ignore so much of the bible? Why do you ignore Christ? Do you think the bible contradicts itself?! - NO it does not... ONLY man's interpretations contradict! I got a news flash for you Ed, it's time you add one and one and come up with two... WHY DO YOU THINK THEY LIE TO YOU ABOUT Catholic TEACHINGS? Why does ian lie? Why does Jack Chick lie? Why does Charlotte lie?! Read the verses below and learn something!

St. Matt 10:22

You will be hated by all because of my name, but whoever endures to the end 10 will be saved.

St. Matt 24:13

But the one who perseveres to the end will be saved.

St. Luke 8:13

Those on rocky ground are the ones who, when they hear, receive the word with joy, but they have no root; they believe only for a time and fall away in time of trial.

Something you really need to take heed to:

St. Matt 7:1

"Stop judging, that you may not be judged.

2 For as you judge, so will you be judged, and the measure with which you measure will be measured out to you.

3 Why do you notice the splinter in your brother's eye, but do not perceive the wooden beam in your own eye?

As the Bible says, I am already saved (Rom. 8:24, Eph. 2:5–8), but I’m also being saved (1 Cor. 1:8, 2 Cor. 2:15, Phil. 2:12), and I have the hope that I will be saved (Rom. 5:9–10, 1 Cor. 3:12–15). Like the apostle Paul I am working out my salvation in fear and trembling (Phil. 2:12), with hopeful confidence in the promises of Christ (Rom. 5:2, 2 Tim. 2:11–13)

This is the last time I'm telling you.... You either do not reply to any more of my emails, OR you show me with the Catechism where the Catechism is wrong!

If you knew Christ and you actually believed your own LIES, you would be able to show me with the Catechism, where the Catholic Church is wrong.

Stop being such a fool. Multiple people who I know have been telling you the same thing that I have been about Catholicism... There are hundreds of websites that say the same thing about Catholicism that I do.

YOU SPREAD LIES ABOUT THE Catholic Church AND THAT PROVES THAT YOU DO NOT KNOW Christ!

Either take the challenge OR DO NOT REPLY!

God Have Mercy on Your Soul,

Max

-----Original Message-----

From: Max [mailto:irishmax@tampabay.rr.com]

Sent: Monday, October 20, 2003 6:59 PM

To: 'Ed Rice'

Subject: RE: Back on line with katholic question

PS. Here is the link to the Catechism http://www.USCCB.org

----------------------------------------------------------------

The man needs to put up or shut up.

Please reply to him with me in such a way that he gets the message to either show us with the Catechism where the Church is wrong - with a link to the Catechism... so we know he actually looked, to many phoney quotes from the Catechism fill anti-Catholic works.

God Bless, Your Servant in Christ,

ironmonk

[foundsheep]

Whoa Monk,man youve got me pumped up now. We still have his address right. Lets tape copies of the catechism all over his house. Kinda a like toilet papering. Lets catechism all over his house. :ph34r:

[VeraMaria]

Whoa Monk,man youve got me pumped up now. We still have his address right. Lets tape copies of the catechism all over his house. Kinda a like toilet papering. Lets catechism all over his house. :ph34r:

:D

[CatholicAndFanatical]

lol great idea.

Actually, we have his mailing address I might just shoot off a catechism to him this week. He's not going to click that link though, he never has. Im sorry but most prots that I run into are lazy and think they know it all already and refuse to do honest research. They remind me of my parents who think they know everything in the Bible but never actually read it. They go by hearsay.

I will email him since he forgot about me *sniff*.

excellent post Iron.

if he doesnt listen to you just go over there an put em in a head lock with those massive biceps.

just kidding.

I'll post what I wrote.

peace

[Jake Huether]

hearsay... heresy...

Coinkidink? Hmmmm.

[Dave]

Get a load of Ed's e-mail to me!

Dear Dave Conger,

Thanks for writing. I am not a liar. I am a Baptist Preacher.

I am not interested in getting you out of the Roman Catholic Church. I am interested that you see it as a false teacher that leads a path to hell, a wide path. Your friends persist in calling me liar-liar pantaloons on fire, and you have started in the same vein. I proclaim the truth of Scripture, truths which are denyed and ignored, explained away and ratioinalized as untrue by the Roman Church who claims to be the mother of all believers. She's not my mother, I have salvation through faith in Jesus Christ and that alone, not through some Roman mother who hands out pieces of the body of Jesus and calls that some sacrament of receiving Christ, as long as I keep coming back.

Below are a few Bible truths I declare against your popes and teachers. The Bible don't lie. I heard the reasons that they use to justify the ignoring of these scriptures, and they are very palatable excuses. But that's all they are.

I understand why the Romans call the truth tellers liars. Truth hurts. Truth is the Roman Church did not give me my Bible, they did all they could to keep me form getting it. Truth is Peter didn't start a Roman Church nor hand on any apostleship to any pope, it's all fiction. Truth is there is no works one can do to earn eternal life, and there is no Catholic Church that can sell it to me. Examine the issues below, the greatest issue being how one attains eternal life. That issue cinches for me who is true and who is false. Your defending a false Roman Church. I won't call you a liar, just deceived. I won't accuse you of insincerity or of ignorance. You have been deceived by a grand deceiver who appears as an angle of light, she is not. She is the apostate Church. I understand your sincerity, but I will not lie to you about the Roman Church. Look at your Bible, it tells the truth.

The Bible

And

Catholicism

The Pope and priests say "call me father." But Jesus said in the Bible "But be ye not called Rabbi: for one is your master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren. An call no man your father upon the earth; for one is your father, which is in heaven." (Matt 23:8-9)

The Pope and priests say "Pray to Mary, pray to Saint Peter, Pray to Saint Jude." But Jesus said in the Bible "Be not ye therefore like unto them . . . After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven Hallowed be thy name. (Matt 6:8-9)

The Pope and priests say "bow and pray before these statues and images." But God said in the Bible "Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in earth beneath, . . . Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God," (Exod 20:4-5)

The Pope and Priests say that "Mother Mary can intercede for you." But Jesus said in the Bible "I am the way the truth and the life: no man cometh to the father, but by me" (John 14:6) And the Apostle Paul wrote in the Bible "For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; who gave himself a ransom for all." (ITim2:5-6)

The Pope and Priests say that they can get your sins forgiven and can save you from sins penalty. But the Bible says "That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved . . . . For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord, shall be saved ." (Rom 10:9,13)

You could be converted from the Sacramental system of Catholicism and saved from your sin by calling on Jesus Christ today. "Except ye be converted . . . Ye cannot enter the kingdom of heaven." (Matt 18:3)

Other Catholic Info

One Question, a Grand Divisor of Truth and False Religions

In all human studies of theology there is no one greater question than the one I shall address here. In all the divisions of religions, especially "Christian religions," there is not a more clear divisor which separates teachers, denominations, faiths and churches into two distinct piles or groupings of "true religion" and "false religion."

The question was asked of Jesus himself while he walked here on this earth. This question, answered wrongly, has formed many a mother church which gives birth to innumerable daughter churches which are tainted by the falsehood of mother's false teachings on this one question. All of mankind is responsible for asking and pursuing truthful answer to this one question, and we should let its answer divide Baptists and Catholics into two distinct piles and call one false and one true.

The question: "What shall man do to attain eternal life." The question looms before every religion. If the Bible is true, and you and I both believe that it is, then there is but one right answer to this question. Again, how a teacher, denomination, religion or church answers this one questions determines weather they are a true religion or a false religion.

Let me state first how a Baptist categorically, across the board answers this question. Then I shall be glad to hear as concise an answer from you as to how your catholic church taught you an answer. Whereupon you and I shall have the tools to decide which religion is the false teacher, Baptist Bible Doctrine, or Catholic Papal Doctrine.

The Baptist believe the clear Bible teaching that there is no works a sinner can do in this life to procure eternal life. It is absolutely a free gift made available to all men through Jesus Christ. Not through his church, not through any good work, not through any physical deed or bead, penance or substance, baptism or conformation. Nothing but faith in Jesus Christ and his promise of GRACE can bring about eternal life to fallen man. And when Jesus Christ gives you this eternal life he don't leave you sitting around wondering if you got it. You are literally born again as he said, born spiritually wherein you are 1) Converted via repentance and faith in Christ, 2) you are Justified before God through Christ, 3) you are Regenerated or quickened, made alive where once you were dead in trespasses and sin, 4) you are Baptized into the body of Christ, (no water here) and 5) you are Indwelt, permanently, by the Holy Spirit of God. These all happen in an instant and are all permanent and everlasting, thus the explanation of Christ "Hath, (present perfect tense) everlasting life." Now when these five events occur simultaneously in ones life, there is little doubt that some thing has happened to the individual and he or she can tell you when they got saved, when they were born again, who showed them the scriptures and how great it is to be saved and know it. We call that giving a testimony of when God saved you, mine is written on my web page, every member of a Baptist Church has this salvation testimony.

Now lets look at a few verifying scriptures. Eph 2:8 "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast." You may not get a full understanding of what it means to get saved from this sentence but it is a cinch that you won't get there with any works that you do. Notice Rom 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work. Clearly no works at all are in ones salvation experience.

Rom 4:1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? 2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. 3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. 4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. 5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. 6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, 7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. 8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

These passages are clear about salvation of man's soul being by grace and no work of any sort being involved. It is a free gift, and must be accepted as such as so eloquently described in the whole dissertation of Romans. Further these excerpts are completely in context, so much so that we recommend that the whole book of Ephesians and the whole book of Romans be read to more fully understand the freedom of this gift, and the reality of an event called salvation that includes the five above mentioned simultaneous events. That is Baptist Doctrine of salvation. It is straight from the Bible and concludes that man can have eternal life, and know that he has it, by being 'born again.' Further the Bible says 1John5:11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. 13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

Any religion that would add some work to this free gift is a false religion. And any church that would offer eternal life up for sale to highest bidders is especially vile. So now I'll bid you do your homework, and tell me what does your Roman church say concerning eternal life? Ask your priest what you must do to know for certain that you have eternal life and record his answer. What is your Roman church teaching this week that one must do to attain eternal life. I know what they taught in the past 1600 years, since they started baptizing infants and broke off from the Baptist Church and joined hands with the government of Rome and they have been a false church a false religion on this regard. So, don't just call me liar here, enlighten me. How does a Roman Catholic attain eteranl life, and know that they have(present perfect tense) it? (In 2 pages or less please)

Pastor Ed Rice, Good Samaritan Baptist Church, 54 Main St. Box 99, Dresden NY 14441

[Lil Red]

The Bible don't lie.

Gotta love good grammar! :lol:

[CatholicAndFanatical]

Good gravy we've already been through those things he listed to you Dave..

Well I emailed him, he hasnt replied to my last message so I just emailed him anyway.

***********************************************

My EMAIL TO MR ED

***********************************************

Ed,

I think you forgot about me. Everyone else is getting emails but me. I must of hit a soft spot in my last email. If you dont remember I stated that it is redundant to try to learn about a religion by talking with someone whos NOT in that religion, makes no sense. And this is exactly how you went about learning what the Catholic Church teachs.

Ed, in one of your emails to Max, you stated that it was Catholics that broke away from the Baptists. After I stopped laughing at this notion, I began to ponder the idea of it and came up with one question that you could answer to prove this is true.

Question: Show me documentation from a baptist that dates before 1500ad. If what Baptist's believe is true, then there will be writtings to back up your claim. So Show me. I did my research, and I can prove you wrong. But im interested in what you have first. So I call your hand Ed, show me what you have.

Why is it Ed that the Catholic Church can provide Letters from Church Fathers like St. Ignatius, St. Augustine and others that date pre-400AD and yet you claim you were around at the same time? Doesnt add up.

In Fact Ed the first known baptist congregation wasnt formed until 1608 in Holland and was led by John Smyth and Thomas Helwys.

Hardly an Apostolic Church Ed, but im sure you'll still claim this is true. Oh and before you state it, this isnt the Church telling me this. I do research myself and usually dont have to go to Church documents to prove prots wrong. A simple trip to the public library does wonders when dealing with Church History.

Another thing Ed, I gather from the emails you sent Max that you are a believer in the 'Once Saved, Always Saved' lie.

Ed, it takes more than just believing in Christ to get to heaven. Mt 7:21 says that not everyone who says "Lord, Lord" will enter heaven. It takes more than that.

Ed, even satan believes Christ is God. Even satan says 'Lord, Lord' then he trembles.

Ed, read Gal 5:4 where it states that you fallen from Christ, you've fallen from grace.

and if you've fallen from grace Ed, you are in Sin. And in Revelations it says clearly that 'Nothing unclean shall enter heaven'. And its not talking about mud either.

You can loose your salvation Ed, its not a gaurantee. Sin still exists, and so does free will. As long as sin exists and free will is around we are not gauranteed heaven.

Ed, if Christs death paid for everything, every sin in the world..then why is there a Hell? Why are there options when we die, either heaven or Hell, based on how you lived your life. There wouldnt be if Christ paid for every single sin we commit today and tomorrow. Everyone would go to heaven because Christ died for the sins were going to commit in the future, its as good as done.

But thats not the case Ed and im sure your intelligent enough to see that thats crazy talk.

Ed, as I have stated to you before Faith needs works to be worth anything. You have errored in your thought that Catholics think that you are saved by works alone..thats as dumb as saying you can be saved by Faith alone Ed. You need BOTH.

On the last day, Jesus will say to those on His right hand, "Come, enter the Kingdom. For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was sick and you visited me."

Then Jesus will turn to those on His left hand and say, "Depart from me because I was hungry and you did not feed me, I was thirsty and you did not give me to drink, I was sick and you did not visit me."

These will ask Him, "When did we see You hungry, or thirsty or sick and did not come to Your help?"

And Jesus will answer them, "Whatever you neglected to do unto one of these least of these, you neglected to do unto Me!"

Ed, dont be foolish and get counted with the goats, the ones on the Left hand of God. Yes you need Faith, but Faith without WORKS is DEAD. Thats the Church Teaching Ed on Faith and Works. Church Teaching, grab a pen so you can remember this, is that you need both Faith AND Works, not one or the other, BOTH. Scripture clearly says this Ed.

Ed, you now know what the Church teachings as far as Faith and Works, no more should I see emails from you saying that the Church teachs that you are saved by Works, thats a lie.

Again Ed, since you havent addressed this point I made in the last email I will stress it again here.

Why would you talk to someone that is a Catholic Hater before you would talk to a Catholic Lover?

Wouldnt you think that the Catholic Hater would have an agenda or wouldnt have anything nice to say at all? How can you know they are being honest unless you check the facts with Catholic Lovers and compare? What im saying is this Ed, if you get 250+ peoples opinion on Church teaching, why not go to the source of the Teachings and verify that what they said is inDouche the truth? Why go by just hearsay? Then make a decision on whether the teachings are wrong or a lie.

Lets say I ask 100 people about Islam, especially after 9/11. These people use to be Islam but left because of 9/11. I ask them and they say all Islam are haters and evil because they believe its ok to fly a plane into a building and expect to go to heaven. Would this be a fair way of going about learning about Islam or knowing their true teachings? Of course not. You would take those 100 peoples opinions, then go get someone who actually knows alot about Islam religion, then say what those 100 people had to say. Then get the truth. If they confirm that it made those people martyrs because they did that...then you would say ok, those 100 people were probably right. But if not, then you would have the truth of what Islam really teachs, not falsehoods from people that left Islam for biased

reasons.

The same should be said with the Catholic Church, ask 100+ X-catholics, or even 250+ Catholics that have no clue. Then go to the source of our Teachings, Sacred Scriptures and the Catechism, figure out what those say

about our teachings. Compare the two and you will get the truth about what we teach and what we dont teach.

Until you do this Ed, you cannot have a fair view of what the Church is. You're only viewing the Son from a broken view.

In Christ,

Steve

*******************************************************

Ill post what he says..

God Bless

[Jake Huether]

It's so sad. We've wasted so much on this guy. He uses the SAME lines that all three of us have already refuted! He hasn't learned, he hasn't wanted to learn. It's canned anti-Catholic Trash, and he's closed his ears to what we've said.

I just want him to answer on thing, and he can't. We've challenged him, and he comes at us with the same angle that we've already smashed.

If "no man" is to be called "father", then why did St. Paul call himself such! Why is "Pastor" Ed, calling himself "Pastor", when that means "Teacher", does it not.

What a joke.

I give up. This guy doesn't care. He has taken our pearls and tossed them back at us.

Dave, it's best either not to respond, or to just jump into the conversation where we're at. Because if you respond to this email, dollars to doughnuts he'll send you the same second email that he's sent all of us, and then once you've responded to that, then he'll send you the very same third email, and so on.

It's the same conversation repeated. He hasn't taken anything that we've shown him and used it to develope (at least) his ideas.

In fact, if I didn't know any better, I'd say that there is no "Pastor Ed". I'll bet it's a time delayed automated response! There the same exact responses that all four of us (now) have received!

LOL! Happy hunting Ed. Hope you find the Truth. :(

[CatholicAndFanatical]

ok, skimming through the same trash Ed sent Dave..I noticed something.

Ed, contridicted himself, no suprise.

One of his beefs with Catholics is calling Priest's Father..

Ed, in error, takes the Bible out of context and says "Call No Man Father"

but further down he is trying to show faith without works..but says this:

Rom 4:1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? 2 For if Abraham were justified by works

Doesnt that say "Abraham OUR FATHER"?

OHH but wait..what happened to CALL NO MAN FATHER??

contridiction, contridiction, contridiction, contridiction

When will Prots learn, huh?

[Jake Huether]

ok, skimming through the same trash Ed sent Dave..I noticed something.

Ed, contridicted himself, no suprise.

  One of his beefs with Catholics is calling Priest's Father..

  Ed, in error, takes the Bible out of context and says "Call No Man Father"

  but further down he is trying to show faith without works..but says this:

 

Doesnt that say "Abraham OUR FATHER"?

OHH but wait..what happened to CALL NO MAN FATHER??

contridiction, contridiction, contridiction, contridiction

When will Prots learn, huh?

Wow! We should show him that.

Of course, he probably already knows.

There really is no issue with calling someone "father". It's just a classic anti-Catholic trick to make us look dumb. But look where it got him! :lol:

[CatholicAndFanatical]

I sent him an email on this..

*******************************

Email to Mr Ed

*******************************

Ed,

skimming through one of your responses to Dave, which happen to be the exact same response you gave Jake, Max and I on our first emails, I notice you contridicted yourself.

You stated: The Pope and priests say "call me father." But Jesus said in the Bible "But be ye not called Rabbi: for one is your master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren. An call no man your father upon the earth; for one is your father, which is in heaven." (Matt 23:8-9)

Although Ed, we've already proved this as a misinterpretation on your part, you still ignore our facts.

however, this is not my issue..reading farther down in the response to Dave you was trying to prove that you are saved by faith alone. But by doing so you copied this scripture:

"Rom 4:1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? 2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. 3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God"

Now Ed, If im not mistaking that Says Abraham OUR FATHER..

But what happened to the "CALL No Man Father" bit?

Seems you only want to believe the Bible when it suits you and not 100% like you claim.

Just thought id point out your misconceptions once again.

Have a nice day,

Steve

*************************************************

Well see if he replies

[p0lar_bear]

Mr. Rice's claim that Baptists were the first Christians is not a novel idea.

There is a group called Landmark Baptists who teach this. Jack Chick also supports this claim. Most of the propaganda on the matter is based on “The Trail of Blood: the History of Baptist Churches from the Time of Christ” by J. M. Carroll (first published in 1931). Carroll asserts that Baptists have always existed, but under different names, since the first century. He then claims that the Montanists, Novatians, Cathars, Paulicians, Bogomils, Waldensians, and Anabaptists were nothing more than Baptists by another name.

James E. McGoldrick’s "Baptist Successionism: a Crucial Question in Baptist History" (Scarecrow Press, 150 pages) is the most thorough refutation of the Baptists’ false historical claim using firsthand historical sources—with the added bonus that the author is himself both a historian and a Baptist.

[CatholicAndFanatical]

James E. McGoldrick’s "Baptist Successionism: a Crucial Question in Baptist History" (Scarecrow Press, 150 pages) is the most thorough refutation of the Baptists’ false historical claim using firsthand historical sources—with the added bonus that the author is himself both a historian and a Baptist.

thanks for the info polar, Im going to see if I can find this book at my library and get it. I'll have to send Mr Ed my findings after I read it.

How and why would they claim they were always around but with different names? Its the same but different logic is kinda funny.

[ironmonk]

Please be sure to check out my site; http://www.BaptistBoard.net

Please be sure to look under the Baptist heading, and then look at the History. :D

When you look at what each group taught, you see that they are nothing like the baptists of today, or each other for that matter.

God Bless, Your Servant in Christ,

ironmonk

[Jake Huether]

Wow! Ed emailed me and it didn't seem canned this time. He "might" be learning. Or at least it appears he is reading some REAL Catholic stuff.

Here is his letter intermingled with my response:

"Thank you for a through but readable answer to my inquiry, let me see if

I understand what you said.

If I am to attain eternal life I must go to a Roman Catholic Church and

there put my faith in Jesus Christ and there do works through the Roman

Catholic Church who is the mother of all faith."

No, not necessarily. The Roman Catholic Church offers, that is, guards, what the Apostles taught. Therefore, what the Catholic Church offers is the most COMPLETE form of Christianity, and the most PERFECT teachings of our Lord Jesus Christ. One may be "saved", but it would be though the graces poured out through the Catholic Church. For it was Her that brought the Faith to "the ends of the earth!" One who is in the Catholic Church, and abides by her Teachings (note: that isn't all "Catholics" obviously), has ALL the tools necessary for salvation, without which we know of no other way in which one may be "saved". Note, WE know not any other way by which one may be saved. But what we know not, God certainly knows. He established the Church (the Catholic "universal" Church, for our benefit! God didn't drop us a Bible! He established us a Church. The Church didn't "have" to write the New Testament and (400 years later) compile the Bible. The Bible was a product of the Church, the Church wasn't a product of the Bible.

"Without her water, wine

and wafers I am a lost sinner plunging towards an eternal hell, because

faith without works through a mother church is dead."

Absolutely not! God knows your heart, Ed. I don't. Without baptism in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit we know of no other way in which one may be saved. For, it is Sacred Scripture (and before that was written, it was Apostolic Tradition) which taught that by Baptism and Repentance we are saved. It says right there in the Bible that one MUST be baptized in order to be saved. And it WAS with WATER Ed. Did you not read about the Ethiopian Eunuch who was baptized by St. Philip!

And without "wine and wafers", which I assume you mean to say the BODY and BLOOD of Jesus Christ (see 1 Cor. and John 6), we have NO LIFE IN US. Therefore, without doing "this in memory of [Jesus Christ]", we know of no other way by which one may be saved. The Catholic Church is the only Church (because Christ established it) that offers Jesus' Body, just as he commanded.

You are not a lost sinner plunging towards an eternal hell, Ed. We all are sinners. I'd say you were lost, because you are not where Christ wants you (in His Church that He established especially for you). But you are certainly not "plunging towards an eternal hell." Unless of course you are spreading lies about Christ's Church on purpose. But if you are sincerely seeking the Truth, and honestly are ignorant of the Truth of the Catholic Church, then Jesus understands, and it is through his divine mercy that once you make it to heaven, you WILL inDouche be a part of the Catholic Church (you will be a member of the Body of Christ in heaven!)

And I never said "faith without works [through mother church] is dead." So please don't misquote me. I said faith without works is dead! Isn't that what Scripture says, Ed? It doesn't matter if you are in the Church or not. Works are counted toward you when you do them in faith, and with love! If believe you have faith, then your faith cannot end at the tip of your tongue. Faith moves you to do good works! Clothe the naked, feed the hungry, visit the imprisoned, etc.

If you are confused about the "works" required in the Catholic Church, like Baptism, reconciliation, Holy Communion, Marriage, etc. These aren't "good works", Ed. This are Sacraments, which are for our benefit (again - notice that what Christ gave us is for our benefit.). We can choose not to have them, but then it is our loss! We miss out on the Graces that they bring. Graces, as I stated before, that without, we know of no other way in which one may be "saved". The Sacramental Graces are our life lines in our walk with Christ. We can say that by the Loving Justice of God many have made it to their eternal reward outside the Church, and outside the Sacraments. But it is by them and through them that they were saved! And in the end, when they are seated on their throne in heaven, they will be counted as one of us, Ed. You cannot escape it. If you make it to heaven, you will be Catholic! Because All the Angels and Saints Sing the Lords Praises whenever a Catholic mass is offered! The Saints are our "cloud of witnesses", and they intercede for us, Ed. If you make it to heaven, I should ask that you pray to the Lord on my behalf, just as I ask you now.

"In other words the

ONLY way that I can get my faith to be alive is by doing works, and the

ONLY avenue for one to do these works is through the mother of all

faith, the Roman Catholic Church."

No, again Ed. Good works are apart from the Catholic Church. The Church may help you to understand what the Lord wishes you to "do". But anyone can do them! If your faith doesn't move you to do good works (no matter where you are at), then it isn't really a strong faith! The Catholic Church IS the Mother of all faith! That is, she nourishes our faith, and presents to us the MOST PURE way in which we can express our faith. She is the mouthpiece of Christ (because he told her "as the Father has sent me, so I have sent you!). She is who has brought you your faith, Ed. Had it not been for the Catholic Church, founded on Peter, then the Apostles would not have preached, their successors would not know about Christ, and the Gospel would not have reached the ends of the Earth. The entire New Testament would not exist, and we would not even have the Written word of God, the Bible! Were it not BY the Catholic Church, through the Power of God, we would not know His Son who died for us! We owe our Faith IN CHRIST to His Bride, His Body, the Church!

"Roman Catholic Article 181 "Believing" is an ecclesial act. The Church's

faith precedes, engenders, supports, and nourishes our faith. The Church

is the mother of all believers. "No one can have God as Father who does

not have the Church as Mother" (St. Cyprian, De unit. 6: PL 4, 519).."

Amen!

I hope that, in light of the answers I presented, you may now better understand these three sentences.

The Church is the mother of all believers, because she shows us what our Father wants. Christ established the Church for this purpose! To do as he did, because he did what his Father wanted him to do.

I'm glad that we are making progress in our mutual understanding.

I must honestly say, Ed. You are inDouche helping me to grasp my own faith better, and I am learning more and more every day about the Catholic Church! I thank you for that!

IN Christ. Jake.

[CatholicAndFanatical]

nice replies Jake

funny how I still havent got a reply from him on my two emails..