Dave Posted October 7, 2003 Share Posted October 7, 2003 its down..it says its been banned, but I see no email address for them. before I email them I'll have to know what their about, obviously this site is an extremely, uh..something..not sure what..hehe No, www.jesus-is-lord.com isn't down. The webmaster is just offline. And you can still access the stories and tracts and stuff on there. The blurb about the site being banned refers to the fact that it's been filtered as a hate site on many people's computers. Of course, I'd say that's a pretty accurate assessment! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Posted October 7, 2003 Share Posted October 7, 2003 is she really calling herself sister tracy?? ugh, she's whacked Oh, that's what many fundamentalists do -- call their fellow parishioners "Brother John" and "Sister Jane." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake Huether Posted October 7, 2003 Share Posted October 7, 2003 yea good point. were gonna have all phatmass emailing him soon..lol anyone else we could email?? Think think think! also, in our challenges to him, we should of stressed the word TEACH, not DOES..he could come back with the typical prot response like The Roman Church has pedophiles in it, Christs CHurch wouldnt have that, blah, blah, blah..course we know the answer to that one, but mr ed wouldnt. Just trying to not give him any loop hole to take because you know if he can find it he'll do the freaking electrice slide right around our challenge. CatholicAndFanatical Yeah, that's why I specifically said, "official". Because if he comes with some bogus carp about anything, I'll just tell him that that isn't what we "officially" teach. Which is true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Qamidalash Posted October 8, 2003 Share Posted October 8, 2003 I must agree, this is fun...and if I wasn't totally swamped in RL, I'd be trying to help more--you guys just beat me to the quick! A different perspective on Ed--guys, I still think he's a Christian, but as a pastor he needs to be firm in his beliefs...true, he seems quite blind now, but I think he honestly believes he's doing God's work. Arg. I wish he would at least give this a chance!! In Him, Sarah Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironmonk Posted October 8, 2003 Author Share Posted October 8, 2003 Here are a few of the past emails that I've had with Ed. --- Original Message --- > From: "MB" <realcatholics@hotmail.com> > To: Ed Rice > Subject: Loving Christ and Truth > Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2002 02:07:34 -0500 I'm sending this to you because I know they will not post it on the ian paisley's site, that is why I sent you the first email. You've added your email to the www.ianpaisley.org guestbook... and the Truth must be known.... ian paisley lies about the Catholic Church. As you can see for yourself below. You are the Judge, ian is the prosecutor, and the Catholic Teaching is the defendant. Now, are you a fair Judge? If yes, read on and please visit the links, and compare. Get the facts and decide for yourself. If someone would please make sure that ian gets a copy of this, I would be grateful. (ian, people are learning the truth about your lies). When looking at the long list on ian's site at: http://www.ianpaisley.org/toc.asp?loc=rome ian paisley quotes Boettner, if ian preaches what he does about the Catholic Church because of what he has read from Boettner and people like Boettner, then I do not say ian lies, but he has been lied to. He really needs to go to a Catholic source to understand Catholic things. Su ch as, if I wanted to learn about the Presbyterian church, I would go to a Presbyterian source, not someone who hates the Presbyterian church. A link to the Catechism or another Catholic source that covers it so you can see for yourself. The Catholic Church DOES NOT reject Christ's one offering. The Church teaches that Christ died once and for all. The "Sacrifice of the Mass" happened in 33 AD. Christ's sacrifice counts for today also. http://www.usccb.org/catechism/text/pt1sec...t2chpt2art4.htm We DO NOT worship Mary. We DO NOT worship images. We DO NOT worship saints. We ONLY Worship God. http://www.usccb.org/catechism/text/pt3sec...2chpt1.htm#art1 The 10 Commandments HAVE NOT been perverted by the Catholic Church. (READ THE ENTIRE SECTION - namely the 1st Commandment, with it's 4 points. In the original language, there were NO numbers. Protestants decided to group them differently than the Catholic Church was doing. There are actually 14 commandments.) Section Two: The Ten Commandments IN BRIEF Chapter One: "You Shall Love the Lord Your God with All Your Heart, and with All Your Soul, and with All Your Mind" Article 1: The First Commandment "You Shall Worship the Lord Your God and Him Only Shall You Serve" "Him Only Shall You Serve" "You Shall Have No Other Gods before Me" "You Shall Not Make for Yourself a Graven Image . . ." IN BRIEF Article 2: The Second Commandment The Name of the Lord Is Holy Taking the Name of the Lord in Vain The Christian Name IN BRIEF Article 3: The Third Commandment The Sabbath Day The Lord's Day IN BRIEF Chapter Two: "You Shall Love Your Neighbor as Yourself" Article 4: The Fourth Commandment The Family in God's Plan The Family and Society The Duties of Family Members The Family and the Kingdom The Authorities in Civil Society IN BRIEF Article 5: The Fifth Commandment Respect for Human Life Respect for the Dignity of Persons Safeguarding Peace IN BRIEF Article 6: The Sixth Commandment "Male and Female He Created Them . . ." The Vocation to Chastity The Love of Husband and Wife Offenses Against the Dignity of Marriage IN BRIEF Article 7: The Seventh Commandment The Universal Destination and the Private Ownership of Goods Respect for Persons and Their Goods The Social Doctrine of the Church Economic Activity and Social Justice Justice and Solidarity among Nations Love for the Poor IN BRIEF Article 8: The Eighth Commandment Living in the Truth To Bear Witness to the Truth Offenses Against Truth Respect for the Truth The Use of the Social Communications Media Truth, Beauty, and Sacred Art IN BRIEF Article 9: The Ninth Commandment Purification of the Heart The Battle for Purity IN BRIEF Article 10: The Tenth Commandment The Disorder of Covetous Desires The Desires of the Spirit Poverty of Heart "I Want to See God" IN BRIEF The Doctrine of Infallibility, what it means, and doesn't mean. ian does not understand it. http://www.catholic.com/library/Papal_Infa...fallibility.asp Other Catholic teachings in Scripture: http://www.ScriptureCatholic.com Below is one of ian's lies and misquotes, then what the Catholic Church truly teaches follows. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Purgatory Pickpocket -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Purgatory is a gigantic fraud. Dr. Ian R.K. Paisley It was in 1950 that Pope Pius XII repeated the claim when he wrote in ‘Humani Generis’ that the enlightener of the Church is not the Spirit but the teaching office of the Vatican: ‘Together with the sacred sources (Scripture and tradition) [NB] God has given to his Church a living magisterium to throw light on and explain those matters that are contained in the deposit of faith only in an obscure and so to speak implicit manner.’ So the pope has become an omnicompetent oracle. It is this replacing of Scripture and the Spirit that John Paul II admires in his forebear Pius XII. Considering that we live in a world where there is all manner of striving for the truth and demand for evidence in so many aspects of life and in the activities of people, more are happy to incorporate into their lives all manner of myths and lies and perpetuate them rather than submit and live by Truth. Certainly the compounding of error leads not to Purgatory or heaven, but rather to death and destruction – HELL. For the true believer John teaches, ‘The blood of Jesus His Son cleanseth us from all sin……If we confess our sin, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness’ (1 John 1:7-9). Dear Roman Catholic reader, what does this mean. This means that it is not just some or a few sins but all sins that are forgiven through the sacrifice of Christ. No sins are left to be purged away by human merit. Further he says, ‘And I heard a voice from heaven saying write, Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from henceforth: yea, saith the Spirit, that they rest from their labours; for their works follow with them’. (Revelation 14:13) Loraine Boettner explains the evil of Purgatory in this way: ‘If any one of us actually had the power to release souls from Purgatory and refused to exercise that power except in return for a payment of money, he would be considered cruel and unchristian – which he would be. [Certainly not a Christ-like example!] No decent man would permit even a dog to suffer in the fire until its owner paid him five dollars to take it out. The insistence on a money transaction before a soul can be released and sometimes money transactions over long periods of time, shows clearly the sinister purpose for which the doctrine of Purgatory was invented. The simple fact is that if Purgatory were emptied and all those suffering souls admitted to heaven, there would be little incentive left for the people to pay money to the priests.’ Purgatory is a gigantic fraud. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Boettner LIES about the Catholic teachings. Below is an article, then Scripture that Purgatory refers to. <insert Purgatory from www.Catholic.com here> Scripture and Tradition.... Just as the Apostles taught. 1 Tim 3:15 But if I should be delayed, you should know how to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of truth. The Church is the Pillar and Foundation of truth. To be the Pillar and Foundation of Truth, then the Church must have the authority to teach the Word of God, to teach it infallibly. Infallibly because it is guided by God. John 14:16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Advocate 8 to be with you always, 17 the Spirit of truth , 9 which the world cannot accept, because it neither sees nor knows it. But you know it, because it remains with you, and will be in you. 18 I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you. 10 Jesus promised that the Church would be guided by the Holy Spirit, in Truth. The Church cannot be wrong about faith and morals, because Jesus said so. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- St Matt 18:17 (Jesus said) If he refuses to listen to them, tell the church . 14 If he refuses to listen even to the church, then treat him as you would a Gentile or a tax collector. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- St. Matt 28:18 11 Then Jesus approached and said to them, "All power in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Go, therefore, 12 and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. 13 And behold, I am with you always, until the end of the age." Which Church has been making diciples of all nations since the Apostles for 2000 years? Which Church could possibly have Jesus Himself guiding the Church? ....answer to both.... The Catholic Church -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Luke 10:16 "He who hears you hears me, and he who rejects you rejects me, and he who rejects me rejects him who sent me" This is another verse that shows there will be One Church to lead, One Church to preach the truth.... -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2 Timoty 3:14 But you, remain faithful to what you have learned and believed, because you know from whom you learned it, 15 and that from infancy you have known (the) sacred scriptures, which are capable of giving you wisdom for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. 16 3 4 All scripture is inspired by God and is useful for teaching, for refutation, for correction, and for training in righteousness, This shows that someone taught it....The scripture spoken of here is the Septuagint... The New Testament was not around until 400 AD. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2 Thess 2:15 Therefore, brothers, stand firm and hold fast to the traditions that you were taught, either by an oral statement or by a letter of ours . 8 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2 Tim 2:2 And what you heard from me through many witnesses entrust to faithful people who will have the ability to teach others as well. These faithful people...who could they be??? Which Church has been around since the Time of Christ & His Apostles? .... The Catholic Church, fulfilling the commands of Jesus. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Romans 10:17 Thus faith comes from what is heard, and what is heard comes through the word of Christ. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1 Peter 1:25 But the word of the Lord abides for ever.’ That word is the good news which was preached to you Ephesians 2:20 built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the capstone. 10 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1 Corin 11:2 1 I praise you because you remember me in everything and hold fast to the traditions, just as I handed them on to you. These traditions spoken of are what the Catholic Church hands on.... -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1 Corin 15:3 3 For I handed on to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the scriptures; -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1 Corin 15:11 Therefore, whether it be I or they, so we preach and so you believed. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Acts 2:42 8 They devoted themselves to the teaching of the apostles and to the communal life, to the breaking of the bread and to the prayers. They devoted themselves to the "teaching" of the Apostles, not scripture. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Acts 8:27 So he got up and set out. Now there was an Ethiopian eunuch, a court official of the Candace, 8 that is, the queen of the Ethiopians, in charge of her entire treasury, who had come to Jerusalem to worship, 28 and was returning home. Seated in his chariot, he was reading the prophet Isaiah. 29 The Spirit said to Philip, "Go and join up with that chariot." 30 9 Philip ran up and heard him reading Isaiah the prophet and said, "Do you understand what you are reading?" 31 He replied, "How can I, unless someone instructs me?" So he invited Philip to get in and sit with him. The Catholic Church is a gift from Christ sent to instruct us. Christ promised that the gates of hell would not prevail against the Church (Matt. 16:18) and the New Testament itself declares the Church to be "the pillar and foundation of the truth" ( 1 Tim. 3:15). -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The following verses describe what the Catholic Church calls "Purgatory" -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Isaiah 6:5 Then I said, "Woe is me, I am doomed! For I am a man of unclean lips, living among a people of unclean lips; yet my eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts!" 6 Then one of the seraphim flew to me, holding an ember which he had taken with tongs from the altar. 7 He touched my mouth with it. "See," he said, "now that this has touched your lips, your wickedness is removed, your sin purged. " Sins are purged so he may enter Heaven. If sins are purged, then he will be saved. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Matt 12:32 And whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven; but whoever speaks against the holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come. How can someone be in Hell, and then be forgiven??? The age to come people can be forgiven, it can't be Heaven because there is no need for forgiveness because in Heaven there will not be sin... it can't be Hell because once your in Hell, it's for eternity. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Rev 20:13 The sea gave up its dead; then Death and Hades gave up their dead. All the dead were judged according to their deeds. 14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the pool of fire. (This pool of fire is the second death.) 15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the pool of fire. Death and Hades (not the pool of fire) gave up their dead and they were judged according to their deeds.... THEN Death and Hades were thrown into the pool of fire (HELL as we know it) Death and Hades is not Hell, and is not Heaven... then what could it be??? The Catholic Church calls it Purgatory. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1 John 5:16 If anyone sees his brother sinning, if the sin is not deadly , he should pray to God and he will give him life. This is only for those whose sin is not deadly. There is such a thing as deadly sin, about which I do not say that you should pray. Rev 21:27 but nothing unclean will enter it, nor any (one) who does abominable things or tells lies. Only those will enter whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life. Nothing Unclean can enter Heaven, but not all sin is deadly (1 John 5:16) therefore we must have our sin purged (Isaiah 6:6-7) before we enter Heaven if we are guilty of lesser sins. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1 Cor 3:15 But if someone's work is burned up, that one will suffer loss; the person will be saved, but only as through fire. How can we be saved from Hell, because Hell is eternal? This being saved as through fire can only be Purgatory, where our lesser sins will be purged from us. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Luke 12:59 I say to you, you will not be released until you have paid the last penny." We will pay for all our sins in one way or another (Purgatory). All our sins must be paid for. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2 Macc 12:43 He then took up a collection among all his soldiers, amounting to two thousand silver drachmas, which he sent to Jerusalem to provide for an expiatory sacrifice. In doing this he acted in a very excellent and noble way, inasmuch as he had the resurrection of the dead in view; 44 for if he were not expecting the fallen to rise again, it would have been useless and foolish to pray for them in death. 45 But if he did this with a view to the splendid reward that awaits those who had gone to rest in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought. 46 Thus he made atonement for the dead that they might be freed from this sin. If we make it to Heaven, we don't need atonement. If we go to Hell, there is no atonement.... There must be Purgatory -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1 Peter 1:6 In this you rejoice, although now for a little while you may have to suffer through various trials, 7 so that the genuineness of your faith, more precious than gold that is perishable even though tested by fire, may prove to be for praise, glory, and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Job 1:5 And when each feast had run its course, Job would send for them and sanctify them, rising early and offering holocausts for every one of them. For Job said, "It may be that my sons have sinned and blasphemed God in their hearts." This Job did habitually. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Purgatory from the Catechism, The Official Teaching of the Catholic Church: III. The Final Purification, or Purgatory 1030 All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are inDouche assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven. 1031 The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned. 606 The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire: 607 As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come. 608 1032 This teaching is also based on the practice of prayer for the dead, already mentioned in Sacred Scripture: "Therefore [Judas Maccabeus] made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin." 609 From the beginning the Church has honored the memory of the dead and offered prayers in suffrage for them, above all the Eucharistic sacrifice, so that, thus purified, they may attain the beatific vision of God. 610 The Church also commends almsgiving, indulgences, and works of penance undertaken on behalf of the dead: Let us help and commemorate them. If Job's sons were purified by their father's sacrifice, why would we doubt that our offerings for the dead bring them some consolation? Let us not hesitate to help those who have died and to offer our prayers for them. 611 607: Cf. 1 Cor 3:15; 1 Pet 1:7. 608: St. Gregory the Great, Dial. 4, 39: PL 77, 396; cf. Mt 12:31. 609: 2 Macc 12:46. 611: St. John Chrysostom, Hom. in 1 Cor. 41, 5: PG 61, 361; cf. Job 1:5. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The name "Purgatory" was given to something that was taught before Christ.... The Catholic Church just gave a name to something that existed before Christ. Read below (from Jewish site: http://www.jewfaq.org/death.htm#kaddish ) make sure you note the bold. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Kaddish Kaddish is commonly known as a mourner's prayer, but in fact, variations on the Kaddish prayer are routinely recited at many other times, and the prayer itself has nothing to do with death or mourning. The prayer begins "May His great Name grow exalted and sanctified in the world that He created as He willed. May He give reign to His kingship in your lifetimes and in your days ...." and continues in much that vein. The real mourner's prayer is El Molai Rachamim, which is recited at grave sites and during funerals. Why, then, is Kaddish recited by mourners? After a great loss like the death of a parent, you might expect a person to lose faith in G-d , or to cry out against G-d's injustice. Instead, Judaism requires a mourner to stand up every day, publicly (i.e., in front of a minyan , a quorum of 10 adult men), and reaffirm faith in G-d despite this loss. To do so inures to the merit of the deceased in the eyes of G-d, because the deceased must have been a very good parent to raise a child who could express such faith in the face of personal loss. Then why is Kaddish recited for only 11 months, when the mourning period is 12 months? According to Jewish tradition, the soul must spend some time purifying itself before it can enter the World to Come . The maximum time required for purification is 12 months, for the most evil person. To recite Kaddish for 12 months would imply that the parent was the type who needed 12 months of purification! To avoid this implication, the Sages decreed that a son should recite Kaddish for only eleven months. A person is permitted to recite Kaddish for other close relatives as well as parents, but only if his parents are dead. See Mourners' Kaddish for the full text of the Mourners' Kaddish. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- God Bless, Love in Christ, max Open Challenge to Ian Paisley: I give you two challenges, if you can do them, I will join whatever church you want. I pray that your heart opens to Christ. Prove the the Catholic Church teaching is wrong with the Bible, by posting links to the parts of the Catechism and quoting verses in the bible...here is the link to the Catechism http://www.usccb.org/catechism/text/entiretoc1.htm For you to find writings from the First Christians, before 1000 AD to show that the Catholic Church was not the Church that Christ built. (even Luther knew it was) "We are compelled to concede to the Papiststhat they have the Word of God,that we received it from them, and that without themwe should have no knowledge of it at all." ~ Martin Luther, Commentary on St. John ----- Original Message ----- From: Ed Rice To: MB Sent: Thursday, December 05, 2002 9:28 PM Subject: Re: Loving Christ and Truth <images of misunderstandings about the Sacraments Here> The RIGHT MODEL, . . . THE BIBLE SAYS: ROM 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. 4:2-5 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. ROM 4:6-8 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin. Portions of this condemning catholic error bled over into all protestant Churches! Study your Bible not your catechism! Wafers and Wine will not save you. Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ alone can save. Be born again, converted, saved today. Pastor Ed Rice ----- Original Message ----- From: Ed Rice To: realcatholics@hotmail.com Sent: Friday, December 06, 2002 10:49 AM Subject: realcatholicswithsacramentsshould readthis Get some insight from the Bible rather than from catechisms. Read my attached rtf document on Biblical Salvation. Follow what the Bible teaches here, not what Jimmy Swaggart or Ian Paisley or Pastor Rice teaches, but what the infallible inerrent Word of God teaches. That is what points out the gross roman errors. That's what you will be judged on come judgement day. Pastor Rice, Good Samaritan Baptist Church, Dresden NY 14441 ----- Original Message ----- From: Real Catholic To: Ed Rice Sent: Thursday, January 16, 2003 12:25 AM Subject: Re: realcatholicswithsacramentsshould readthis Ed, I've been reading the bible over and over for 23 years.... God Bless... http://www.ScriptureCatholic.com Where does the bible say I must read it alone? At the bottom are some questions that no protestant church or beliefs can answer... Here is what the bible says.... Acts 8:30-35 - And Philip running thither, heard him reading the prophet Isaias. And he said: Thinkest thou that thou understandest what thou readest? 31Who said: And how can I, unless some man shew me? And he desired Philip that he would come up and sit with him. 32And the place of the scripture which he was reading was this: He was led as a sheep to the slaughter; and like a lamb without voice before his shearer, so openeth he not his mouth. 33In humility his judgment was taken away. His generation who shall declare, for his life shall be taken from the earth? 34And the eunuch answering Philip, said: I beseech thee, of whom doth the prophet speak this? of himself, or of some other man? 35Then Philip, opening his mouth, and beginning at this scripture, preached unto him Jesus. 2 Peter 1:20 - Understanding this first, that no prophecy of scripture is made by private interpretation. 2 Peter 3:16 - As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are certain things hard to be understood, which the unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, to their own destruction. John 14:16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Advocate 8 to be with you always, 17 the Spirit of truth, 9 which the world cannot accept, because it neither sees nor knows it. But you know it, because it remains with you, and will be in you. 18 I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you. 10 Jesus promised that the Church would be guided by the Holy Spirit, in Truth. The Church cannot be wrong about faith and morals, because Jesus said so. 1 Tim 3:15 But if I should be delayed, you should know how to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of truth. The Church is the Pillar and Foundation of truth. To be the Pillar and Foundation of Truth, then the Church must have the authority to teach the Word of God, to teach it infallibly. Infallibly because it is guided by God. St Matt 18:17 (Jesus said) If he refuses to listen to them, tell the church. 14 If he refuses to listen even to the church, then treat him as you would a Gentile or a tax collector. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- St. Matt 28:18 11 Then Jesus approached and said to them, "All power in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Go, therefore, 12 and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. 13 And behold, I am with you always, until the end of the age." Which Church has been making diciples of all nations since the Apostles for 2000 years? Which Church could possibly have Jesus Himself guiding the Church? ....answer to both.... The Catholic Church -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Luke 10:16 "He who hears you hears me, and he who rejects you rejects me, and he who rejects me rejects him who sent me" This is another verse that shows there will be One Church to lead, One Church to preach the truth.... -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2 Timoty 3:14 But you, remain faithful to what you have learned and believed, because you know from whom you learned it, 15 and that from infancy you have known (the) sacred scriptures, which are capable of giving you wisdom for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. 16 3 4 All scripture is inspired by God and is useful for teaching, for refutation, for correction, and for training in righteousness, This shows that someone taught it....The scripture spoken of here is the Septuagint... The New Testament was not around until 400 AD. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2 Thess 2:15 Therefore, brothers, stand firm and hold fast to the traditions that you were taught, either by an oral statement or by a letter of ours. 8 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2 Tim 2:2 And what you heard from me through many witnesses entrust to faithful people who will have the ability to teach others as well. These faithful people...who could they be??? Which Church has been around since the Time of Christ & His Apostles? .... The Catholic Church, fulfilling the commands of Jesus. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Romans 10:17 Thus faith comes from what is heard, and what is heard comes through the word of Christ. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1 Peter 1:25 But the word of the Lord abides for ever.’ That word is the good news which was preached to you -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ephesians 3:5 which was not made known to human beings in other generations as it has now been revealed to his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit, -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ephesians 2:20 built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the capstone. 10 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1 Corin 11:2 1 I praise you because you remember me in everything and hold fast to the traditions, just as I handed them on to you. These traditions spoken of are what the Catholic Church hands on.... -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1 Corin 15:3 3 For I handed on to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the scriptures; -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1 Corin 15:11 Therefore, whether it be I or they, so we preach and so you believed. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Acts 2:42 8 They devoted themselves to the teaching of the apostles and to the communal life, to the breaking of the bread and to the prayers. They devoted themselves to the "teaching" of the Apostles, not scripture. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Acts 8:27 So he got up and set out. Now there was an Ethiopian eunuch, a court official of the Candace, 8 that is, the queen of the Ethiopians, in charge of her entire treasury, who had come to Jerusalem to worship, 28 and was returning home. Seated in his chariot, he was reading the prophet Isaiah. 29 The Spirit said to Philip, "Go and join up with that chariot." 30 9 Philip ran up and heard him reading Isaiah the prophet and said, "Do you understand what you are reading?" 31 He replied, "How can I, unless someone instructs me?" So he invited Philip to get in and sit with him. The Catholic Church is a gift from Christ sent to instruct us. Christ promised that the gates of hell would not prevail against the Church (Matt. 16:18) and the New Testament itself declares the Church to be "the pillar and foundation of the truth" (1 Tim. 3:15). <36 questions from www.Catholic-Convert was here> God Bless, Max ----- Original Message ----- From: Ed Rice To: realcatholic@hotmail.com Sent: Tuesday, February 04, 2003 10:17 PM Subject: Others Exposing Catholic Insanity The Roman Catholic Doctrine of Intention Bishop Samuel D. Benedict Definite Intention? One peculiar Roman Catholic doctrine, which casts a great cloud of doubt over the whole Roman Catholic Church, must be briefly mentioned, and that is the doctrine of *intention. The Roman Church teaches that when a priest celebrates a sacrament or performs any ecclesiastical rite, he must have in his mind an intention to celebrate that sacrament or to perform that rite or else the sacrament or rite is null and void and no good. This means that when a priest is celebrating Mass, unless at the time he has in mind an intention to celebrate a real Mass, it is no Mass at all. In such case, if the priest did not definitely intend to celebrate a real Mass, the wafers were not consecrated at all, and the people who received them, desiring to receive the Communion, did not receive the Communion at all, because the wafers had never been consecrated. How, therefore, does a Roman Catholic know whether he is ever receiving the Communion? When a person goes to confession, unless the priest in his mind definitely intends to give absolution, the penitent receives no absolution, although the priest says the words of absolution. How, therefore, can a poor penitent ever know that he has received absolution? He cannot! He can never be sure that the priest has absolved him. When a Roman bishop ordains a priest, unless at the time he has in his mind a definite intention to ordain that man a priest, the supposed ordination is no ordination at all, and the supposed priest is not a priest, and all his Masses, absolutions, and other priestly acts are null and void and no good. The bishop might have been thinking of something else, giving no thought or intention to his acts, or maliciously withholding any intention to ordain (because he disliked the candidate for ordination), in which case the supposed ordination is no ordination. Under this Roman doctrine of intention no supposed Roman bishop can be sure he was ever consecrated bishop. No priest can be sure his own bishop is really a bishop, and no layman can be sure his own priest is really a priest. How can any sane person remain a member of an institution like that, and always be in doubt and never be sure of anything? * Council of Trent (sess.VII) see also Roman Catholic Encyclopedia, vol. VII, p.69 For your comments or questions please contact us at: The CONVERSION CENTER INC. P.O.BOX 31688 RALEIGH, NORTH CAROLINA 27622-1688 Telephone (919) 782-6140 Facsimile (919) 782-6678 Toll Free Number 1-800-631-8220 Max, . My prayer is that you will have your eyes opened, see the Catholic Church for the Babylon that she is and Get out of Babylon before it is eternally to late. Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication. (Rev 16:18) Pastor Rice ----- Original Message ----- From: Real Catholic To: Ed Rice Sent: Wednesday, March 05, 2003 12:45 AM Subject: Re: Others Exposing Catholic Insanity Get the facts.... from the source...not from rumor mongers who will leave key points out and take things out of context, just like ian paisley does...and that is why I built the site www.ianpaisley.net and he can't do a thing about it, because I'm telling the truth...yet he lies. From the Catholic Encyclopedia..... Intention <www.NewAdvent.org insert here > God Bless, Max ----- Original Message ----- From: Ed Rice To: realcatholic@hotmail.com Sent: Friday, January 17, 2003 9:55 PM Subject: Intro to Catholic Answers 1-36 Max, In answer to you questions, from Pastor Rice Where does the bible say I must read it alone? At the bottom are some questions that no protestant church or beliefs can answer... Perhaps no Protestant Church can answer your questions, but here is a Baptist Preacher, not Protestant, who can and will. Baptists were around long before Catholics. In fact one of the first catholic acts was to annex or kill Bible Believing Baptists who would not unite with them to form their first Imperial State Church. Where does the bible say I must read it alone? I am in agreement with you on this point. David Koresh, of Waco Texas, (x7DayAdventist) is a good example of one who took off with his own interpretatoins and became a cult. In hermeneutics one must consider at least three safeguards. I. What the Bible says in context. Context of the passage and in context with the whole book, comparing scripture with scripture. 2) What has always been believed and taught about the doctrine. If its new its not true, makes a good rule of thumb here. (the rule works well for Bible versions as well) This middle safeguard delves into the history of orthodox Christianity; one should be careful stepping outside what God revealed (from His word) in times past. 3) What is commonly believed and taught by Bible believers and scholars in ones own era. This is an important sanity check in relating Bible truths and Bible principles to the predicaments of our modern society. These three safeguards are employed to keep one from "reading the Bible alone." However, I know your implication, and I do not believe that "The Catholic Church" should ever be the one who provides this interpretation of Scripture. "The Catholic Church" from it's conception as an Imperial State Church in 330 AD, has been such an instrument of hell that John Wycliffe and I don't consider it as "The Church of the living God, the pillar and ground of truth." (I Tim 3:15b) Who then is this CHURCH that you so recklessly consider the "Pope run Catholic Church" every time you see it in Scripture? Baptists (not Protestant), ever since Polycarp received his copy of the closing Revelation of Jesus Christ from the apostle John, pursuant to the death of this last apostle, have held with the apostles that it is the independent, autonomous, local churches. You, Max, must watch for the occurrence of Church, [Greek - ecclesia] in the PLURAL in your Bible, and recognize why it is there. Each of these Independent , autonomous, local churches must watch for its own doctrine, its own stand, and its own ordained elder that fills the office of Bishop-Pastor/Teacher, being one man in one office in one local Church with no hierarchy. It is the Holy Spirit of God that indwells believers and leads them into all truth. Each individual Church and particularly its Bishop-Pastor/Teacher, must give answer for its accurate following of the "head of the Church." That head is the Lord Jesus Christ not some hierarchical structure and certainly not a pope. Independent Autonomous Local Churches, ... This concept is very foreign to your Roman dictate that one universal Church be in charge of holding all doctrine and authority so pay particular attention to its development in 1) scripture and 2) in history and even 3) in this error in ecclesiastical control which was passed to Protestant churches and is currently leading even Catholics into bigger error with its homosexual priesthood. This independent, autonomous local church concept is foreign to most Protestant Churches that carried gross ecclesiastical error from their mother church when they protested. Luther, Calvin and puritans did not protest far enough to go all the way back to what the Bible says and become Independent Fundamental Baptists, holding to the Bible as their only source of faith and practice. Their protest got them out of Catholic error concerning Salvation, it being of Faith and Faith ALONE, no indulgences, no Catholic Sacraments, no last rights, no purgatory, no candles for the dead. However, they (Protestants) did not follow the leading of the Holy Spirit sufficiently to structure their ecclesiastical practices after the direction of first and second Timothy and Titus, written "That thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God." They did ,however, depart from the grossest of Catholic error, concerning individual soul salvation by faith, and concerning the power of the Word of God which was not to be a Latin book locked away in a Catholic Monastery as your Pope had dictated. Never forgetting that they killed thousands of Bible believing born again believers who desired to read the Bible in the English language because of those Catholic dictates. Recall "in 1425 an angry mob, led by the local Roman priests and bishops, entered into a cemetery in the little town of Lutterworth, England, and proceeded to desecrate the grave of a man who had been dead forty one years. His remains were exhumed and burned along with his writings, and his ashes scattered into the River Swift. He had been declared a notorious heretic, posthumously, excommunicated, posthumously, his memory condemned, and the vile act of destroying his earthly remain had been ordered. . . . The man was John Wycliff, and his only crime was translating the Bible into the English language."[From "Purified Seven Times, the history of the English Bible" by Evangelist Bill Bradley, pp. 5] Now you ask me to trust this Church as the sole interpreter of Scripture? Please understand how dumfounded I am to even discourse with an educated man who exhibits such trust. I appreciate the opportunity to answer your questions, but I question whether one who cannot see the error of Catholicism, is born from above. The Holy Spirit of God, who does not speak of himself (John 16:13) but speaks form what we hear from the Bible, can guide you from this false trust in Catholicism, if your eyes have been opened by the light of Jesus Christ through "born again" (John 3)," converted to Christ" (Matt 18), salvation. If you have not been born again you cannot see the kingdom of heaven, nor the Catholic error. If you have not been converted from Catholicism to Christ , you cannot enter the kingdom of God, nor can you enter into this enlightenment on Catholic error. You will fight it all the way. As I apply my studies to the word I will answer your unanswerable questions in turn. Consider some of the above concepts as foundational steps to freedom from the Catholic error you are entangled in. You conceptualize that the WORD, the TRUTH, and all CHRISTIAN FAITH is entrusted to a single organization with infallible teachings, the Roman Catholic Church. I am still amazed to find an educated individual who could believe such, knowing the history of this church. The concept you despise, but will find repeatedly through this treatise, is that the WORD, the TRUTH, and all CHRISTIAN FAITH is entrusted to a single book, written by the apostles (obviously written prior to their death) and handed down as the written word of God (or 2 gospels written under strict scrutiny of the apostles, in the case of John Mark, who wrote Mark, and Dr. Luke, who wrote Luke). Thus if one is to continue in the doctrine of the apostles, it will involve the BOOK they left us. It can not involve the traditions of the murderous, barbaric Catholics who hate the exposure of the BOOK that the apostles wrote and left us. That is the heart of the difference between a Church believer and a Bible believer. You are a Church believer. I a Bible believer. In my next correspondence I will begin my address of the 36 questions you present. God Bless your Studies of Him and His Word,.... not "them" and their interpretations Pastor Ed Rice ------------------------ < My reply to the above was a wave of history and facts... to long to post here > ---------------------- The guy is so clueless. Your Servant in Christ, ironmonk, KOC 2nd Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CatholicAndFanatical Posted October 8, 2003 Share Posted October 8, 2003 Who then is this CHURCH that you so recklessly consider the "Pope run Catholic Church" every time you see it in Scripture? Baptists (not Protestant), ever since Polycarp received his copy of the closing Revelation of Jesus Christ from the apostle John, pursuant to the death of this last apostle, have held with the apostles that it is the independent, autonomous, local churches. Did he just say that the Baptists have always been around since Polycarp??? This boy has no clue of History. He still claims he's not Protestant. wow, well he hasnt replied to my email yet. But if its anything like what he sent you then I wont expect much from him. CatholicAndFanatical Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironmonk Posted October 9, 2003 Author Share Posted October 9, 2003 The latest... -----Original Message----- From: Ed Rice [mailto:edrice4@linkny.com] Sent: Wednesday, October 08, 2003 11:22 PM To: irishmax@tampabay.rr.com Subject: Thanks A Lot My oldest son is serving in the Army in Iraq. I use this email address to keep up on what the 4th ID is doing in Tikrit on a daily basis. I suspect it was your intention to cripple my email by flooding it with catholic bullitins. You suceeded. For the sake of a retired veterin who is trying to find out if his son is still living in the war I'll ask you this once to call off your henchmen and delete my name from all your catholic propaganda sites that have brought my email to a VERY frustrating halt. Pastor Ed Rice, USAF retired, with 39 catholic propaganda trash mails arriving hourly, eliminating all updates from the 4th ID Fort Hood Tx. -----Original Message----- From: Max [mailto:irishmax@tampabay.rr.com] Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2003 1:10 AM To: 'Ed Rice' Subject: RE: Thanks A Lot Dear Ed, I posted your email on a Catholic site, I'll post this email too, I'm sure whoever did that had proper intentions of showing you that we are Christian, and you have been told wrong about what the Catholic Church teaches. I'm also sure that the emails will stop. For the love of Christ, I ask you on your honor as a lover of Christ, to stop spreading lies about our Church teachings. As I wrote to you in many emails, everything that you present against the Church is a misunderstanding or misconception. I have been Catholic all my life. I have read the bible since I was six years old. Never I have I seen the Catholic Church teach anything that contradicts the bible. I go to Mass, I read the bible, I read the Catechism, I listen to the Church and I know for a fact that the Catholic Church revolves around Christ. If Charlotte's testimony was true, then why are there so many happy and chaste nuns? I am grateful that you care enough to email me in regards to my salvation. I am saddened that you have been given misinformation about the Catholic faith. I have a firm knowledge of Scripture, and I have a firm knowledge of Catholic teachings. You are the judge in a court room Ed, you have continued to listen to the prosecution, please listen to the defense now. Please open your heart and mind, ask Christ to guide you, and seek the Truth. If you wanted to know about math, would you go to an English teacher? If you wanted to know about the President, would you ask someone who hated him, loved him, or was not bias? If I wanted to know about the Baptist churches, I would ask practicing Baptists, not ex-Baptists who hate them. Likewise, if you really want to know what the Church teaches, ask those who love her... Like me, Steve, and whoever else might have emailed you from the board. Or come to the board for some brotherly dialog. http://www.PhatMass.com/Phorum/ or http://www.MoralTruth.com/MTBBS/ God Bless, Your Servant in Christ, Max Knight Of Columbus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironmonk Posted October 9, 2003 Author Share Posted October 9, 2003 The latest: ----- Original Message ----- From: Ed Rice <edrice4@linkny.com> Date: Thursday, October 9, 2003 7:39 am Subject: Sorry no more catholics There was some responce from you that inadvertantly got deleted by my server. I did not recover it. Due to your despicable tactic I have had to set my fiddlers to delete any email which contains the word catholic in subject address or body. It is unfortunate I will not therefore be hearing from you, it is unlikely you will write something that will get by this fiddler. I will remove it next year at this time. In the mean time don't close your ears to the Truth. You think it is found in what the modern Katholic pervades as its modern teaching. But, I know it comes from what Katholics themselves say as they step out of their masses and confessional booths counting their beads and saying their hale Marys. I especially know and see every day those who have been converted to Christ, converted from Catholicism. I know you hate my source, as I hate yours. I know you'll discredit mine as liars and thieves publicans and sinners. You know I'll be doing all I can to discredit yours as false teachers, apostates and anti-Christs calling themselves vicars of Christ. I pray you well in your quest for the truth found in the Lord Jesus Christ. I pray you cursed in your propigation of Katholic lie and deceipt. Neither are in hate as your friends accuse, and I think you know. Perhaps we can dialog again next year after your spam desists. Love Pastor Ed Rice, Good Samaritan Baptist Church, Dresden NY My Reply: Ed, You do not know what it means to be Christian. You are a hypocrite and a bigot. It's a shame that you are a so closed to the truth. Why do you listen to people that hate the Church, when there are billion's who love the Church? I would be a fool if I only listened to people who hate the Baptist churches about baptist teachings. Historical facts prove you wrong. Either do what I challenge or don't send me anymore emails. The Challenge, if the Church is wrong, then prove it by showing us where the Catechism is wrong from http://www.USCCB.org I will no longer cast pearls among swine. You say I don't have Christ, but I do, I have been very charitable with you in your ignorance these past eleven months. I will no longer tolerate you sending garbage to my email with your hate, when I have tried to show you love. If you continue to send me lies about the Church, I will continue to send you truths about the Church. If you want a brotherly dialog in Christ, then show me where the Catechism is wrong from http://www.USCCB.org I am Catholic, and I'm tired of non-Catholics telling me what the Church teaches as if they know the Church better than I do. No non-Catholic that I have ever met knows the Catholic teachings better than me. And they THINK they can tell me that I'm wrong about the Church?! Get over yourselves. The ONLY WAY TO KNOW WHAT THE Church TEACHES IS TO GO TO A Church SOURCE! Get a clue... why do you wish to be a hate monger.... The only way you can build up your church is by trying to tear down Christ's Church. God have mercy on you, Max Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasJis Posted October 9, 2003 Share Posted October 9, 2003 Max, You have the patience of Job. I don't think I could have gotten past two emails without responding with emails that include the words "stupid idiot". My hat is off to ya! You may be a blunt object, but you're made of cold iron. jasJis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake Huether Posted October 9, 2003 Share Posted October 9, 2003 Ah, so he wont be getting my reply to his post: May the Peace of Christ be always with you, Ed. "Truth hurts when you've been fed lines which are smooth as oil for so very long." Ed, like I said, there is nothing truthful about what Charlette spoke. It is all in contradiction to what I know the Church to teach. And what I know comes from OFFICIAL Church documents, not hearsay. "Let me encourage you to keep diging into the evil history of your mother Church." I need not dig very far to know that the Church is not evil. I do know, however, that certain members of the Church have been very evil. But when they act in sin, they act against Christ's Body. All throughout history you will note that when the "Church" does something "wrong" it is not the Church at all, only it's sinful members. And it is very easy to prove that it was them and not the Church, because the Church has always made it's official stance in teachings on faith and morals VERY Clear! Which is what the Holy Spirit promised! "I will pray that the Holy Ghost of God will open your eyes to the truth of His Holy Word." Thank you! "Here are some good Catholic contradictions to start with. The Bible And Catholicism" Great! Here is where I might start showing you the misconceptions of anti-Catholic rhetoric. "The Pope and priests say "call me father." But Jesus said in the Bible "But be ye not called Rabbi: for one is your master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren. An call no man your father upon the earth; for one is your father, which is in heaven." (Matt 23:8-9)" This is a traditional attack, very easily refuted. For you refer to yourself as "Pastor", but what is a Pastor but a leader, a teacher, a "father" if you will. But I'm not here to attack you, because Catholics draw a different conclusion about what Christ meant. In understanding Scripture, you MUST have noted that St. Paul, several times refers to himself as a spiritual father! And he calls his disciples children! This is what happens because of what is called in Scripture, "personal interpretation", Ed. Ever since the reformation in 1517, people are free to read the Bible and conform it's words to mean what each individual takes it to mean. But the Catholic Church has a 2000 year history of teaching everything according to how the Apostles intended it! It was Catholics who decided which books to place in the Bible! What Christ meant was that we must NOT recognize any person on earth as one who has created us. It all ties in with the first commandment! He was talking to the Pharisees who had "taken Moses' seat". They wanted to be seen as "fathers" when they weren't leading them in the Father's Will. But Catholic Priests, Jesus' Apostles, are called father because they lead us in the Father's will. When they do not lead us as such, then we must not "call" them father. In other words, we should not follow what they are doing, as sons would! We are to "do as they say, but not as they do". That is what Christ is referring to! Do not follow them as fathers, but you MUST listen to them as fathers! "The Pope and priests say "Pray to Mary, pray to Saint Peter, Pray to Saint Jude." But Jesus said in the Bible "Be not ye therefore like unto them . . . After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven Hallowed be thy name. (Matt 6:8-9)" The Pope and priests do not say "Pray to Mary, et al" in the sense that you mean it. Mary cannot answer our prayers. Jesus does! But we can ask Mary to pray for us (which is praying to Mary to pray for us). And this is perfectly Biblical. For, even Paul asked the Church to pray for him! And we all know that after we die, we do not cease to be members of the Body of Christ. In fact, as Scripture says, the dead, they are more alive than us! Matt 6: 8-9, shows us how WE are to pray to God, our Father. And WE do. But WE does not exclude the dead, it does not exclude others who are alive on earth. When I ask for your prayers, then you will pray to the Father WITH me! In this very email, you say that you will pray for me (and I thank you again). We pray for each other! And those in heaven are looking at Christ as we speak! What a great position to be in in order to support those members of the SAME Body of Christ on earth! "The Pope and priests say "bow and pray before these statues and images." But God said in the Bible "Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in earth beneath, . . . Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God," (Exod 20:4-5)" Ed, peace be with you. This is an easy mistake to make. If you can show me using official Church documents that the Pope and priests say bow and pray before these statues, as in "pray to these statues", then, like I said before, I will leave the Church, and my tithe goes to you. This is an outright lie. The Pope and priests acknowledge statues and images as a useful means to remind us of the Glory of God! Would you quote Exod 20:4-5 to Moses, who created a "graven image" of a serpent! Would you quote Exod to the Israelites who looked at it and were saved!? Or would you quote Exod to Solomon, who built God's house using several "graven images", such as statues of angels, paintings of flowers and bulls.? Would you quote Exod. to those who bowed down before the Ark of the Covenant, which by the way had two "graven images" on it as well (angels). NO! In fact, God commanded these images to be made! So, you are obviously mistaken about what the command "thou shalt not..." refers to. We do not worship statues, no more than you worship your bed when you kneel before it in prayer! These statues and images are merely pictures, just like you might have of your family! They remind us of our family members in heaven. That's right, Ed. As God is our Father, then we are all brothers and sisters. "The Pope and Priests say that "Mother Mary can intercede for you." But Jesus said in the Bible "I am the way the truth and the life: no man cometh to the father, but by me" (John 14:6) And the Apostle Paul wrote in the Bible "For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; who gave himself a ransom for all." (ITim2:5-6)" As Mary was the Mother of Christ (who was God), then she is defacto, our mother as well! And just as Jesus is King of heaven and earth, (and in the OT you must note that the mother of the King, is the queen), that is why Mary is queen of heaven and earth. But Catholic know Mary is merely a human. She can do nothing more than you or I. And we know this, Ed. But what Mary can do MUCH BETTER THAN US is obey her Son! And in doing so, she can pray for us to Christ on our behalf, just like you are praying for me, Ed, on my behalf. Mary is not a "mediator between God and men". Mary is a mediator, and so are we, between each other. But EVEN the prayers of Mary, a "man", go to Jesus, who mediates between her and God. You see Ed. There is no Biblical contradiction. Mary is just a human. We ask her to pray for us, just like you! But you certainly aren't a mediator between me and God! No, you are my mediator between me and Jesus! Jesus is still the necessary mediator between God and you. Mary and all the Saints who we ask intercession of, MUST go before Jesus first! He is still the mediator between God and them (and us). You act as though Catholics don't love Jesus. I love Jesus! He is my ONLY Savior! But How can I be a true friend of Christ without meeting the family. How can one truly know Christ, their future BrideGroom, without meeting and talking to His Mom! If you can say that you Love your wife, but completely ignore her family, then shame on you! A great way of showing your love for your wife, is to show your love and respect for her family. And as humanity is in the image and likeness of God, so too must we show God's family LOVE and respect! Especially those He chose to be so close to! "The Pope and Priests say that they can get your sins forgiven and can save you from sins penalty. But the Bible says "That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. . . . For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord, shall be saved." (Rom 10:9,13)" Ed, surely you mustn't have forgotten these verses, "the Son of Man has the power to forgive sins on earth". And, "whose sins you forgive are forgiven, whose sins you retain are retained." But I must point out the error in your first sentence. Priests will never say that they "forgive the sin", and they never say that they can save you from sins penalty. A priest, in confession, will say that your sins are forgiven through the ministry of the Church and by the Power of Jesus Christ, your sins are forgiven. The Church doesn't teach that a priest can save you from sins penalty. We are accountable for sins penalty, which was rinsed through the Blood of Jesus Christ. The Church does have the power to "loose" sins. "Whatever you bind on earth, is bound in heaven. Whatever you loose on earth is loosed in heaven". If you can prove the above statement (yours), by using the official Church documents (namely the Catechism), then the Challenge that I posted previously still stands. "You could be converted from the Sacramental system of Catholicism and saved from your sin by calling on Jesus Christ today. "Except ye be converted . . . Ye cannot enter the kingdom of heaven." (Matt 18:3)" Ed, I have been converted. But Christ BIDS us to USE the Sacramental System! Because it is a system that was established by Him FOR us. It is the ONLY System by which we may receive Christ's EXTRA Graces, not available in any other form! I am a servant of the Lord Jesus Christ, Ed. And He told us we MUST have these Sacraments in order to attain to everlasting life! "Repent and be Baptized" to be saved. "Receive the Holy Spirit" "Unless you eat the Flesh of the Son of Man, you have NO LIFE IN YOU. For my Flesh is REAL food, and my Blood REAL drink." "Whose sins you forgive, they are forgiven" "therefore a man leaves his father and mother and clings to his wife and they become ONE FLESH." These Sacraments, Ed, are our lifeline to Christ! Without them, you are struggling on a very very long and hard journey. You may think you are on the right path, Ed, but without the Sacramental "road" signs, you have no idea! Many will cry out "Lord, Lord..." but they will not be saved! Think about it, Ed. Christ wants you to know Him. You may know His Love, you May think you know Him in and out and complete! But you cannot know him without knowing His Body, the Catholic Church. God Bless you, and the Peace of Christ always saturate you! Jacob Huether It's a shame he will not read this. But it occured to me that he probably has already heard much of it, and doesn't give a rats you know what. He is now to be treated as a Gentile and tax collectore. But that doesn't mean we cannot, or should not pray for him. Lord, we humbly ask you right now to touch Ed with a love for your Body and a Holy Will to stop persecuting You in Your Church. St. Paul please pray with us for the conversion of Ed, who, much like yourself at one time, is confused about who Christ is. We ask this in your name Lord Jesus Christ. Amen! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CatholicAndFanatical Posted October 9, 2003 Share Posted October 9, 2003 I just received this from Mr. Ed ********************************** I'm surprised you call them proofs, when they are but wild speculations about what you suppose to be the way things used to be done. It made me wonder if you recognized any of the abominable things the Roman Church has buried in its ugly history. Do you know what The sale of Indulgences was all about? Have you heard the ugly word Inquisition before and seen what they did to Bibles and Bible Believers? Do you pretend all this history is just a lie made by catholic bashers too? Do you know what a Dontatist is? or a Waldenses?, or a AnaBaptist? Or has your deceitful catholic library cleaned all them from your history section as well? That would make it easier to perpetuate your lies about only one church. Hey, ever heard of the Byzantine Empire and something called Eastern Orthodox in any of your limited half blind studies? Could you do a little research and tell me where and when the Roman Catholic Church substituted Mother Mary for every occurrence of God as they printed the whole book of Psalms? Do you deny that as well? How about what your Church and it's divorced sister the Anglican Church, did to the Bible translators, including Tyndale, has your Church cleaned up it's ugly history by expunging all such documentation from it's carefully polished and spotless history section. *************************************** He didnt even touch on the things I mentioned in my previous emails..im going to send him a reply. i'll post it after I write it. CatholicAndFanatical Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Posted October 9, 2003 Share Posted October 9, 2003 That's anti-Catholics for ya . . . always resorting to personal attacks and not listening to what you have to say. Not very Christ-like, if you ask me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CatholicAndFanatical Posted October 9, 2003 Share Posted October 9, 2003 Here is the reply I gave him.. ************************************ Ed, Although I agree that the Church hasnt had the best history, and yes I've read about the Inquisition, I know about the Eastern Orthodox, even the Eastern Orthodox holds the same teachings except the Authority of Peter as the Catholic Church. They believe in Mary's Perpetual Virginity, they believe in the Real Presence. They broke away because of the Authority issue, but everything else stayed the same. The Church didnt cover up its bad past what so ever, any devout Catholic will know their history and know the facts. You say Ed: "I'm surprised you call them proofs, when they are but wild speculations about what you suppose to be the way things used to be done" I Say: Prove me wrong. Show me a carmelite order that has 180 nuns in it. that are cloistered but yet able to go to a hospital to work. Ed, does the truth frighten you? You base your whole belief on feelings, I understand that you're frightened to take the challenge my friends and I have placed before you. I know your heart tells you that what your doing is right, but your heart is not in the right place Ed. Im sure Jeffery Domers heart told him that it was ok to do what he did, but does that make it right? Was he following the right path because he followed his heart? God isnt based on feelings. You think the Apostles and the Saints always felt like God was with them? No, even Jesus didnt always have that 'feeling' that God was with Him. It sadens me Ed that you two step your way past our emails and challenge. All you have done is spout off the same bit of scripture that, like most prots do, have nothing relevant to do with this subject. It proves to me that not only is your head and heart hardened, but that you are not a 'pastor' for the sake of Christ, but for the tax benefits. We asked you to prove us wrong. Prove the Official teachings of the Church are wrong. All you needed to do was grab a Catechism, which are the teachings of the Church, and go through it and tell us where it is wrong and contrary to Sacred Scriptures. If you was truely out to win souls for Christ, like our Priests are, then you would of jumped at the chance to win us from the 'Evil Rome' you claim we are. We are staking our Faith on this Ed, and willing to tithe your church if you can do this. Why havent you done so? Why do you stay on the same ole topic each time you write? Sure our history hasnt been the best, but Jesus never said that His Church would be perfect, all He promised was that the Gates of Hell will not prevail, but Satan will try, and he has. You have to realize that through all those bad times, all the anti-popes, the Inquisition, the selling of indulgences, through all those times, Not ONE Doctrine, Dogma or Teachings of the Church was changed. Thats whats important. Humans are going to error and sin, were human. Even you sin Ed, I know its hard to believe but you do, everyday. The teachings of the Catholic Church are protected from error by the Holy Spirit, which is why during those hard times, He protected them and kept them from getting changed. I could go on and give you fact after fact, scripture after scripture to prove my point and show you why we know what we know. But you wont read it. 5 bucks says you made it to the second paragraph of my email and already started to reply to me. So I will just end it here. I will still extend my challenge to you Ed, prove the Catechism wrong. Prove the Teachings (Official Teachings, not hearsay) of the Catholic Church wrong. If you do, I will cease to being Catholic and tithe your church. And one last thing Ed. If there was something else besides Catholic prior to 1500's, how come there are no writings to back this up? Im sure they were able to read and write, our Bishops and Priests didnt seem to have problems writting things down. Show me Ed, a Non-Catholic Christian that dates pre 1500's. I would be interested in reading that. God Bless, Steve ****************************************888 well see what he says to this CatholicAndFanatical Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Posted October 9, 2003 Share Posted October 9, 2003 amesome work, as always, Steve! :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CatholicAndFanatical Posted October 9, 2003 Share Posted October 9, 2003 *bows* Thank you, Thank you :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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