Some times I feel like God Hates Women

[popestpiusx]

hsmom
I'm going to finish this essay I am working on (only 9 pages to go), then I will get to your question. For now I am logging off.

PS I'll also answer your e-mail cmom.

[cmotherofpirl]

Goodnight. Remember to get some sleep.

[popestpiusx]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='Nov 30 2004, 01:19 AM'] Goodnight. Remember to get some sleep. [/quote]
That is not likely to happen until tommorrow night.

[Oik]

Unfortunately, Our country doesn't offer and/or encourage much alternatives on how to work marriages out and kep them together.

The Church is our only hope and if we as catholics are to ensure the Church's ability, we, the people of the church, have to be active in offering our help and encouragement to those in difficult and abandoned situations.

[Oik]

Whether we are male or female, it is great to be God's creation! I think men and women should have discussions amongst close friends about what it is like to be male/female. So many insights!

[amarkich]

Cmom, why did women need those things (suffrage, equal pay, opportunity to work in the workplace, etc.)? I am curious of your reasoning, considering the fact that these kinds of things were never done in Catholic (and, for the most part, even protestant, jewish, and mohammedan) societies throughout human history. The only societies in which such things have been seen are the pagan and secular societies and logically so.


Further, just to address a previous point (because it was incomplete). Someone said that women are created to the image of God. This is true but only indirectly. Man was created to the image of God, and woman was created to suit man, essentially, in his image. "The man indeed ought not to cover his head, because he is the image and glory of God; but the woman is the glory of the man. For the man is not of the woman, but the woman of the man. For the man was not created for the woman, but the woman for the man." cf., I Corinthians xi.7-9. This is one of the biblical expressions of the doctrine that women are subject to men and that women have to wear veils, while men do not (I did not quote the specific reference to women wearing veils; this command is found in verses 5 and 6). Further, this is the basis for the belief that women require an intercessor in matters of the Faith, e.g., they can never be priests or any ordained order, nor can they hold any ecclesiastical power, and, as the 1983 Code of Canon Law maintains, women may not act in a matter concerning the Faith without a male procurator whereas a male may act on his own accord or through a procurator (specifically, in matters concerning the cause for canonization). Either way, I just wanted to make that point, and give a few of the reasons that women did not have this authority (voting, equal pay, equal opportunity, etc) in Catholic societies.


By the way, the Catechism of the Council of Trent speaks of the roles of the wife this way:

On the other hand, the duties of a wife are thus summed up by the Prince of the Apostles: Let wives be subject to their husbands. that if any believe not the word, they may be won without the word by the conversation of the wives, considering your chaste conversation with fear. Let not their adorning be the outward plaiting of the hair, or the wearing of gold, or the putting on of apparel: but the hidden man of the heart in the incorruptibility of a quiet and meek spirit, which is rich in the sight of God. For after this manner heretofore the holy women also, who trusted in God, adorned themselves, being in subjection to their own husbands, as Sarah obeyed Abraham, calling hint lord.

To train their children in the practice of virtue and to pay particular attention to their domestic concerns should also be especial objects of their attention. The wife should love to remain at home, unless compelled by necessity to go out; and she should never presume to leave home without her husband's consent.

Again, and in this the conjugal union chiefly consists, let wives never forget that next to God they are to love their husbands, to esteem them above all others, yielding to them in all things not inconsistent with Christian piety, a willing and ready obedience.

cf., On Marriage, Duties of a Wife

Edited December 1, 2004 by amarkich

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='amarkich' date='Dec 1 2004, 02:54 PM'] Cmom, why did women need those things (suffrage, equal pay, opportunity to work in the workplace, etc.)? I am curious of your reasoning, considering the fact that these kinds of things were never done in Catholic (and, for the most part, even protestant, jewish, and mohammedan) societies throughout human history. The only societies in which such things have been seen are the pagan and secular societies and logically so.


Further, just to address a previous point (because it was incomplete). Someone said that women are created to the image of God. This is true but only indirectly. Man was created to the image of God, and woman was created to suit man, essentially, in his image. "The man indeed ought not to cover his head, because he is the image and glory of God; but the woman is the glory of the man. For the man is not of the woman, but the woman of the man. For the man was not created for the woman, but the woman for the man." cf., I Corinthians xi.7-9. This is one of the biblical expressions of the doctrine that women are subject to men and that women have to wear veils, while men do not (I did not quote the specific reference to women wearing veils; this command is found in verses 5 and 6). Further, this is the basis for the belief that women require an intercessor in matters of the Faith, e.g., they can never be priests or any ordained order, nor can they hold any ecclesiastical power, and, as the 1983 Code of Canon Law maintains, women may not act in a matter concerning the Faith without a male procurator whereas a male may act on his own accord or through a procurator (specifically, in matters concerning the cause for canonization). Either way, I just wanted to make that point, and give a few of the reasons that women did not have this authority (voting, equal pay, equal opportunity, etc) in Catholic societies.


By the way, the Catechism of the Council of Trent speaks of the roles of the wife this way:

On the other hand, the duties of a wife are thus summed up by the Prince of the Apostles: Let wives be subject to their husbands. that if any believe not the word, they may be won without the word by the conversation of the wives, considering your chaste conversation with fear. Let not their adorning be the outward plaiting of the hair, or the wearing of gold, or the putting on of apparel: but the hidden man of the heart in the incorruptibility of a quiet and meek spirit, which is rich in the sight of God. For after this manner heretofore the holy women also, who trusted in God, adorned themselves, being in subjection to their own husbands, as Sarah obeyed Abraham, calling hint lord.

To train their children in the practice of virtue and to pay particular attention to their domestic concerns should also be especial objects of their attention. The wife should love to remain at home, unless compelled by necessity to go out; and she should never presume to leave home without her husband's consent.

Again, and in this the conjugal union chiefly consists, let wives never forget that next to God they are to love their husbands, to esteem them above all others, yielding to them in all things not inconsistent with Christian piety, a willing and ready obedience.

cf., On Marriage, Duties of a Wife [/quote]
A women is made in the image and likeness of God.:

26: Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness; and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps upon the earth."
27: So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

Men and women are equal in the sight of God. I am not the property of another human being, no man has rights over me, simply because he is male. If I choose to submit to a male it will be my own free will.
I have the right to conduct my own affairs, and vote for public office, and be paid the same pay for the same work as a man doing the same job.

Nobody lowers my gas bill because I am a woman. My grocery bill does not get a 10% discount because I am female. I am not exempt from the legal system and politicians because I am a woman. I have the right to vote for who makes the laws of the country I am residing in.

Edited December 1, 2004 by cmotherofpirl

[homeschoolmom]

[Sojourner]

I work 40 hours a week, and I come home tired to a house that needs to be cleaned, laundry that needs to be folded and put away, and bills that need to be paid. I am not married, although I am not averse to the idea at some point in the future. I do not live with my parents. I do not at this point believe I am called into religious life, although again this isn't a vocation to which I'm averse.

Where do I fit into your equation, Amarkich? I'm doing the same work that my male co-workers are doing. My mind is as able, or more able in some cases, as theirs. Shouldn't I receive the same pay? Because I work, I pay taxes. Shouldn't I have a voice in where those taxes go and how they're spent?

[Luthien]

[quote name='amarkich' date='Dec 1 2004, 12:54 PM'] Cmom, why did women need those things (suffrage, equal pay, opportunity to work in the workplace, etc.)? I am curious of your reasoning, considering the fact that these kinds of things were never done in Catholic (and, for the most part, even protestant, jewish, and mohammedan) societies throughout human history. The only societies in which such things have been seen are the pagan and secular societies and logically so.


Further, just to address a previous point (because it was incomplete). Someone said that women are created to the image of God. This is true but only indirectly. Man was created to the image of God, and woman was created to suit man, essentially, in his image. "The man indeed ought not to cover his head, because he is the image and glory of God; but the woman is the glory of the man. For the man is not of the woman, but the woman of the man. For the man was not created for the woman, but the woman for the man." cf., I Corinthians xi.7-9. This is one of the biblical expressions of the doctrine that women are subject to men and that women have to wear veils, while men do not (I did not quote the specific reference to women wearing veils; this command is found in verses 5 and 6). Further, this is the basis for the belief that women require an intercessor in matters of the Faith, e.g., they can never be priests or any ordained order, nor can they hold any ecclesiastical power, and, as the 1983 Code of Canon Law maintains, women may not act in a matter concerning the Faith without a male procurator whereas a male may act on his own accord or through a procurator (specifically, in matters concerning the cause for canonization). Either way, I just wanted to make that point, and give a few of the reasons that women did not have this authority (voting, equal pay, equal opportunity, etc) in Catholic societies.


By the way, the Catechism of the Council of Trent speaks of the roles of the wife this way:

On the other hand, the duties of a wife are thus summed up by the Prince of the Apostles: Let wives be subject to their husbands. that if any believe not the word, they may be won without the word by the conversation of the wives, considering your chaste conversation with fear. Let not their adorning be the outward plaiting of the hair, or the wearing of gold, or the putting on of apparel: but the hidden man of the heart in the incorruptibility of a quiet and meek spirit, which is rich in the sight of God. For after this manner heretofore the holy women also, who trusted in God, adorned themselves, being in subjection to their own husbands, as Sarah obeyed Abraham, calling hint lord.

To train their children in the practice of virtue and to pay particular attention to their domestic concerns should also be especial objects of their attention. The wife should love to remain at home, unless compelled by necessity to go out; and she should never presume to leave home without her husband's consent.

Again, and in this the conjugal union chiefly consists, let wives never forget that next to God they are to love their husbands, to esteem them above all others, yielding to them in all things not inconsistent with Christian piety, a willing and ready obedience.

cf., On Marriage, Duties of a Wife [/quote]
To quote the Catechism of the Catholic Church, the Church that contains the faith you claim to have amarkich.

369 Man and woman have been [i]created[/i], which is to say, [i]willed[/i] by God: on the one hand, in perfect equality as human persons; on the other, in their respective beings as man and woman. "Being man" or "being woman" is a reality which is good and willed by God: man and owman possess and inalienable dignity which comes to them immdeiatly from God their Creator 240. Man and woman are both with one and the same dignity "in the image of God." In their "being man" and being woman," they reflect the Creator's wisdom and goodness.

370 In no way is God in man's image. He is neither man nor woman. God is oure spirit in whicj there is no place for the difference between the sexes. But the respective "perfections" of man and woman reflect something of the infinite perfection of God: those of a mother and those of a father and husband


No where does it say God made just man in His image. God has no gender, and Im not saying He is a she either. God made man in His image in the sense that he created mans soul. And when I say man, I mean both man and woman, because man and woman are of the same nature, human beings that is. Man is in no way superior to woman, just because we are different does not mean we are less than the man.

On civil rights, I think CMom and Sojourner communicated exactly how I feel on that subject.

PS I go to the Latin Mass (Tridentine Rite) and I wear a veil. I do realize that my [i]gorgeous[/i] hair might be a destraction to all those young men who aren't able to look at me and think of me as a feminine beauty created by God to reflect His perfection in the aspect of femininity. ( This is all said with tongue in cheek of course)

Pax Christi

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Luthien' date='Dec 1 2004, 03:50 PM'] PS I go to the Latin Mass (Tridentine Rite) and I wear a veil. I do realize that my [i]gorgeous[/i] hair might be a destraction to all those young men who aren't able to look at me and think of me as a feminine beauty created by God to reflect His perfection in the aspect of femininity. ( This is all said with tongue in cheek of course) [/quote]
Just so people know, I don't have anything personally for or against veils, but I find it so beautiful when women, especially younger women, wear them in the midst of a time when they are likely to get scorn and weird looks. I have a lot of respect for you.

[Luthien]

I feel like a virgin bride when I wear it.

I am a virgin just fyi, but not a bride just yet.

[amarkich]

Cmom, hmm, I did not hear much in the way of a philosophical argument. You stated a few claims without making any argument in support of the claims. You say that you have rights and that you deserve equal treatment, but you give no support for [i]why[/i] you deserve equal treatment.

Sojourner, that is quite a predicament, but it is not as if I have devised some system into which you must fit. I am simply explicating, as well as I may, what the consensus of all humans was before Modernism (in which I include Feminism, the French and American Revolutions, Secularism, and other modern errors). Further, I also am simply giving the practice of Catholic societies. No Catholic society ever talked about civil rights. No Catholic society ever said women should be allowed to work in the workplace. No Catholic society ever said women should be able to vote, to have equal pay, or to have equal opportunity. Further, to answer your question, in my opinion (and that of Catholic culture, even into the 50s and 60s in America), a person in that situation should be living at home. I do not necessarily even make an exception for males in this regard. I think the family is an important aspect of life and that men and women should live in their families until they are married and have their own families or until they enter priestly or religious life. I suppose, then, that you would fit [i]per se [/i]into the system by living at home. That is my opinion, or, rather, it is the opinion of Catholic culture throughout history (up to and including America even until the feminist movement).

[cmotherofpirl]

Because I along with all other humans are made in the image and likeness of God.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Luthien' date='Dec 1 2004, 03:58 PM'] I feel like a virgin bride when I wear it.

I am a virgin just fyi, but not a bride just yet. [/quote]
I think it's a lovely practice, and it really speaks in a good, chaste way to those men who are pure of heart that you are work courting. Seriously, the humility and modesty it shows will attract the purest of men.