popestpiusx Posted January 11, 2005 Posted January 11, 2005 I think most people are missing the point of, or not understanding, this discusion.
Apotheoun Posted January 11, 2005 Posted January 11, 2005 [quote name='popestpiusx' date='Jan 10 2005, 10:43 PM'] No, but you would have to say that the people, by virtue of their existence, are good in some sense. Sin cannot corrupt nature. God created all things good. Those people's sin is choosing to worship the creature instead of the creator (and as such are worshiping some lower good to the neglect of the highest Good.) But we must acknowledge that all things that exist are good, because their very existence is a participation in God's own existence, even if they choose to deny that. [/quote] All things that exist essentially are good because God has created them, but evil, which has no essence, can still have existence. It hardly does any good to tell someone who has suffered from an evil committed against them that that evil doesn't really exist. Even in the Scholastic system, to which I no longer subscribe, it is only God whose essence and existence are identified.
Apotheoun Posted January 11, 2005 Posted January 11, 2005 [quote name='Q the Ninja' date='Jan 10 2005, 11:17 PM'] But the effects of evil do exist.. [/quote] Planned Parenthood is an effect.
popestpiusx Posted January 11, 2005 Posted January 11, 2005 [quote name='Apotheoun' date='Jan 11 2005, 02:14 AM'] Even in the Scholastic system, to which I no longer subscribe, it is only God whose essence and existence are identified. [/quote] This is absolutely true.
Apotheoun Posted January 11, 2005 Posted January 11, 2005 [quote name='popestpiusx' date='Jan 10 2005, 11:20 PM'] This is absolutely true. [/quote] Only within the Scholastic system.
popestpiusx Posted January 11, 2005 Posted January 11, 2005 [quote name='Apotheoun' date='Jan 11 2005, 02:14 AM'] All things that exist essentially are good because God has created them, but evil, which has no essence, can still have existence. It hardly does any good to tell someone who has suffered from an evil committed against them that that evil doesn't really exist. [/quote] It seems to me that if something has existence, it would have to have been created and its existence kept in being. How's this look: First: 1) All things that God created are good; 2) evil is not good; 3) therefore, evil was not created by God. Second: 1) God created every thing; 2) God did not create evil; 3) therefore, evil is not a thing.
popestpiusx Posted January 11, 2005 Posted January 11, 2005 [quote name='Apotheoun' date='Jan 11 2005, 02:23 AM'] Only within the Scholastic system. [/quote]
Apotheoun Posted January 11, 2005 Posted January 11, 2005 [quote name='popestpiusx' date='Jan 10 2005, 11:25 PM'] It seems to me that if something has existence, it would have to have been created and its existence kept in being. How's this look: First: 1) All things that God created are good; 2) evil is not good; 3) therefore, evil was not created by God. Second: 1) God created every thing; 2) God did not create evil; 3) therefore, evil is not a thing. [/quote] Planned Parenthood is an effect of the evil actions of many human beings, but it is not an essence, it is a legal fiction.
popestpiusx Posted January 11, 2005 Posted January 11, 2005 [quote name='Apotheoun' date='Jan 11 2005, 02:30 AM'] Planned Parenthood is an effect of the evil actions of many human beings, but it is not an essence, it is a legal fiction. [/quote] I don't disagree with that. Perhaps I am an idiot (a very likely scenario), but I don't see how that is opposed to what I posted.
Apotheoun Posted January 11, 2005 Posted January 11, 2005 [quote name='popestpiusx' date='Jan 10 2005, 11:37 PM'] I don't disagree with that. Perhaps I am an idiot (a very likely scenario), but I don't see how that is opposed to what I posted. [/quote] It's not against anything you posted, but it does mean that Planned Parenthood is evil, for it is the evil effect of the actions of many human beings.
popestpiusx Posted January 11, 2005 Posted January 11, 2005 Oh, I see. So the debate now is over whether or not PP is considered a subsistent "thing", or an effect?
Q the Ninja Posted January 11, 2005 Posted January 11, 2005 I should think that's where it needs to begin...
Apotheoun Posted January 11, 2005 Posted January 11, 2005 [quote name='popestpiusx' date='Jan 10 2005, 11:41 PM'] Oh, I see. So the debate now is over whether or not PP is considered a subsistent "thing", or an effect? [/quote] The debate is about whether Planned Parenthood is evil or not. But for the Thomists on the phorum it is about whether or not Planned Parenthood is a being or an effect.
Q the Ninja Posted January 11, 2005 Posted January 11, 2005 (edited) [quote]The debate is over whether or not Planned Parenthood is evil or not. But for the Thomists on the phorum it is about whether or not Planned Parenthood is a being or an effect.[/quote] Edited January 11, 2005 by Q the Ninja
popestpiusx Posted January 11, 2005 Posted January 11, 2005 I have no real opinion on that. I'll say this, if it is a subsistent "thing", then it cannot be considered evil IN THE STRICT SENSE OF THAT TERM. If it is an effect, then I have no qualms with referring to it as evil, even in the strict sense. In the broad sense of the term, PP is just beaver dam evil no matter what state of existence you give it.
Q the Ninja Posted January 11, 2005 Posted January 11, 2005 I guess it depends on what people mean when they refer to Planned Parenthood and if they intend to call all the doctors or whatever who consider themselves to be part of "Planned Parenthood" to be evil too.
popestpiusx Posted January 11, 2005 Posted January 11, 2005 [quote name='Apotheoun' date='Jan 11 2005, 02:44 AM'] The debate is about whether Planned Parenthood is evil or not. But for the Thomists on the phorum it is about whether or not Planned Parenthood is a being or an effect. [/quote] Troublesome Thomists. I do hate them so! They should all be stamped with a "phishy" label.
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