toledo_jesus Posted February 7, 2005 Posted February 7, 2005 [quote name='spathariossa' date='Feb 7 2005, 07:35 PM'] You're not helping your case by being intractable, unsympathetic, uncharitable, and ignorant and by drawing on base generalizations. [/quote] It's hard to be sympathetic when actual concern is met with sarcasm. You keep trying to ridicule the position that transgenderism is not normal. It does exist, I acknowledge that. It is a problem, and thankfully not many have to experience it. However, you seem to be attempting to use sarcasm to demonstrate that the position is not correct, when we can point to the evidence that untold billions never have to deal with a single feeling of being in the wrong body. If by intractable you do mean difficult to manage, sarcasm does not manage people very well. I don't believe I've been uncharitable. If I am ignorant, I apologize, but I have enough experience to know that the way you're dealing with the comments is not effective.
dUSt Posted February 7, 2005 Posted February 7, 2005 [quote name='toledo_jesus' date='Feb 7 2005, 06:45 PM'] It's hard to be sympathetic when actual concern is met with sarcasm. You keep trying to ridicule the position that transgenderism is not normal. It does exist, I acknowledge that. It is a problem, and thankfully not many have to experience it. However, you seem to be attempting to use sarcasm to demonstrate that the position is not correct, when we can point to the evidence that untold billions never have to deal with a single feeling of being in the wrong body. If by intractable you do mean difficult to manage, sarcasm does not manage people very well. I don't believe I've been uncharitable. If I am ignorant, I apologize, but I have enough experience to know that the way you're dealing with the comments is not effective. [/quote] Nice counter.
spathariossa Posted February 7, 2005 Posted February 7, 2005 (edited) [quote name='toledo_jesus' date='Feb 7 2005, 06:45 PM'] It's hard to be sympathetic when actual concern is met with sarcasm. You keep trying to ridicule the position that transgenderism is not normal. It does exist, I acknowledge that. It is a problem, and thankfully not many have to experience it. However, you seem to be attempting to use sarcasm to demonstrate that the position is not correct, when we can point to the evidence that untold billions never have to deal with a single feeling of being in the wrong body. If by intractable you do mean difficult to manage, sarcasm does not manage people very well. I don't believe I've been uncharitable. If I am ignorant, I apologize, but I have enough experience to know that the way you're dealing with the comments is not effective. [/quote] I keep trying to ridicule the attitude that a person must possess to take the position that transgenderism isn't normal rather than actually dealing with the issue at hand. In other words, you saying that being trans isn't normal is absolutely and completely unhelpful. We all know that. I've known that all of my life. But rather than work on the issue from a standpoint of what to do with the few that have the problem and how the Church should deal with it, you and others seem locked into the idea that you have to constantly re-iterate the strangeness of the condition. Telling people to be prudent about where to post their problems because it may unduly affect youth is a cover for the truth of the matter. The truth is that you think the issue is weird, you think those dealing with it are doing the wrong thing, and you're uncomfortable discussing it. But it is much easier to just say that it hurts the children and never have to rethink your MISconceptions. I only started using sarcasm after answering the same question from the same people for the thousandth time and having to deal with the same veiled insults from the same people for the thousandth time. How can you expect me to even put up a facade of courtesy when I have to deal with people referring to me as though I'm male? In conclusion, your arguments are fallacious and your expectations are unrealistic. Edited February 7, 2005 by spathariossa
spathariossa Posted February 8, 2005 Posted February 8, 2005 [quote name='dUSt' date='Feb 7 2005, 07:03 PM'] Nice counter to his counter. [/quote] You are an obsequious sycophant.
Brother Adam Posted February 8, 2005 Posted February 8, 2005 I want my T-shirt dUSt. I know where you live.
dUSt Posted February 8, 2005 Posted February 8, 2005 [quote name='Brother Adam' date='Feb 7 2005, 07:07 PM'] I want my T-shirt dUSt. I know where you live. [/quote] You do? I don't even know that.
rachael Posted February 8, 2005 Posted February 8, 2005 [quote name='Brother Adam' date='Feb 7 2005, 07:07 PM'] [/quote] can i join?
toledo_jesus Posted February 8, 2005 Posted February 8, 2005 [quote name='spathariossa' date='Feb 7 2005, 07:53 PM'] I keep trying to ridicule the attitude that a person must possess to take the position that transgenderism isn't normal rather than actually dealing with the issue at hand. In other words, you saying that being trans isn't normal is absolutely and completely unhelpful. We all know that. I've known that all of my life. But rather than work on the issue from a standpoint of what to do with the few that have the problem and how the Church should deal with it, you and others seem locked into the idea that you have to constantly re-iterate the strangeness of the condition. Telling people to be prudent about where to post their problems because it may unduly affect youth is a cover for the truth of the matter. The truth is that you think the issue is weird, you think those dealing with it are doing the wrong thing, and you're uncomfortable discussing it. But it is much easier to just say that it hurts the children and never have to rethink your MISconceptions. I only started using sarcasm after answering the same question from the same people for the thousandth time and having to deal with the same veiled insults from the same people for the thousandth time. How can you expect me to even put up a facade of courtesy when I have to deal with people referring to me as though I'm male? In conclusion, your arguments are fallacious and your expectations are unrealistic. [/quote] well my issue arises when a sense of legitimacy invades the treatment of said condition. While it is a legitimate condition, it's not a good one. When I feel we might be talking about it or referring to it with a degree of normalcy attached, I feel it prudent to be that annoying person. I liken public discussion of this to talking about my struggles with lust in public. Lots of details people don't want to hear. I do not mean to be overly frank, but many simply don't care to trouble themselves about your issue, and why should they? When does it impact them and why should it ever? We are, after all, spread all over the globe and a certain impersonal distance must be had. Until the Church has a very definite teaching on it, we work with what we have. I know you are more aware of what's out there than I am. My position has been that personal problems should not be aired in public. It's a matter of courtesy to those who don't want to hear about it, and a matter of prudence for those who might be adversely affected by the discussion. By all means make people aware of your condition and ask us to pray for you...but don't unload on anybody unless you know them and trust them. I have no expectations for anybody beyond simple courtesy.
spathariossa Posted February 8, 2005 Posted February 8, 2005 [quote name='toledo_jesus' date='Feb 7 2005, 07:19 PM'] well my issue arises when a sense of legitimacy invades the treatment of said condition. While it is a legitimate condition, it's not a good one. When I feel we might be talking about it or referring to it with a degree of normalcy attached, I feel it prudent to be that annoying person. I liken public discussion of this to talking about my struggles with lust in public. Lots of details people don't want to hear. I do not mean to be overly frank, but many simply don't care to trouble themselves about your issue, and why should they? When does it impact them and why should it ever? We are, after all, spread all over the globe and a certain impersonal distance must be had. Until the Church has a very definite teaching on it, we work with what we have. I know you are more aware of what's out there than I am. My position has been that personal problems should not be aired in public. It's a matter of courtesy to those who don't want to hear about it, and a matter of prudence for those who might be adversely affected by the discussion. By all means make people aware of your condition and ask us to pray for you...but don't unload on anybody unless you know them and trust them. I have no expectations for anybody beyond simple courtesy. [/quote] The problem is that a degree of normalcy attached on phatmass means "Treating these people with the courtesy due other human beings." It'd be nice to get that once in awhile. I find it ironic that you speak of courtesy when you judge other people's lives in a manner the Church hasn't even condoned. [quote]I know you are more aware of what's out there than I am.[/quote] Good, then I expect you not to give your uneducated opinion on it ever again.
cathqat Posted February 8, 2005 Posted February 8, 2005 [quote name='toledo_jesus' date='Feb 7 2005, 07:19 PM'] I do not mean to be overly frank, but many simply don't care to trouble themselves about your issue, and why should they? When does it impact them and why should it ever? [/quote] Everything we are and do affects and impacts everyone else. Even if the only people with this condition I'd ever met were people on this forum, that's still interaction. We have a responsibility to love all our brothers and sisters, and love includes concern and caring.
toledo_jesus Posted February 8, 2005 Posted February 8, 2005 [quote name='cathqat' date='Feb 7 2005, 08:24 PM'] Everything we are and do affects and impacts everyone else. Even if the only people with this condition I'd ever met were people on this forum, that's still interaction. We have a responsibility to love all our brothers and sisters, and love includes concern and caring. [/quote] I didn't advocate shunning them...I just said that it doesn't impact most people's day to day lives...
spathariossa Posted February 8, 2005 Posted February 8, 2005 [quote name='toledo_jesus' date='Feb 7 2005, 07:25 PM'] I didn't advocate shunning them...I just said that it doesn't impact most people's day to day lives... [/quote] If constantly reiterating that their lives aren't normal and are to be avoided at all costs isn't shunning then what the hell would you call it?
toledo_jesus Posted February 8, 2005 Posted February 8, 2005 [quote name='spathariossa' date='Feb 7 2005, 08:23 PM'] The problem is that a degree of normalcy attached on phatmass means "Treating these people with the courtesy due other human beings." It'd be nice to get that once in awhile. I find it ironic that you speak of courtesy when you judge other people's lives in a manner the Church hasn't even condoned. Good, then I expect you not to give your uneducated opinion on it ever again. [/quote] I'm afraid I'm going to have to keep on giving my uneducated opinion. When you teach me something then maybe it will be my educated opinion. I'm sorry that you feel other people and I haven't been courteous to you. I'm not aware of any lapse on my part, but I apologize. I am also not aware of when I have been judgmental. If you could point out where you took offense perhaps we could correct it.
cathqat Posted February 8, 2005 Posted February 8, 2005 [quote name='toledo_jesus' date='Feb 7 2005, 07:25 PM'] I just said that it doesn't impact most people's day to day lives... [/quote] I know. And my point was that you're always already affected by it, whether you're consciously aware of it or not. And if you don't care, you should. That's all.
toledo_jesus Posted February 8, 2005 Posted February 8, 2005 [quote name='spathariossa' date='Feb 7 2005, 08:27 PM'] If constantly reiterating that their lives aren't normal and are to be avoided at all costs isn't shunning then what the hell would you call it? [/quote] a constant position. If I were shunning people we wouldn't be having this conversation.
spathariossa Posted February 8, 2005 Posted February 8, 2005 (edited) [quote name='toledo_jesus' date='Feb 7 2005, 07:33 PM'] a constant position. If I were shunning people we wouldn't be having this conversation. [/quote] Well let's put this another way. Let's pretend I'm black and when I post on african-american issues you and 10000 other phatmassers reply with "Remember, most Americans aren't black. Being black isn't normal." How do you think that will make someone feel? Strictly speaking, it's true. In my case only 1 in 30,000 people has my disorder. I'm well aware of that. But maybe you should take other people's feelings into account. As far as teaching you and everyone else - I attempted that. The thread got closed, people learned nothing, and they persist in their ignorance. How about this: The Church doesn't teach that trans people cannot or should not change genders in their day to day lives. Edited February 8, 2005 by spathariossa
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