vasectomy

[Brother Adam]

Is this a game to you? To those of us who are serious about the persuit of truth this is serious business. Simply because you haven't gotten a response on the internet within 24 hours doesn't mean you have won anything. Most of us are at school taking classes and are in the last month of the semester before finals.

If you agree that marriage is not about fulfilling lusts, then you agree with the true interpretation of the Corinthians quote. From the sound of your post you have proven to yourself that you have absolutely no justification to get a vasectomy in order to destroy the beautiful process God has made in your body. If you agree marriage is about giving your whole self to your spouse, than you agree that also includes your fertility.

To you're "baptism" quote, I am sorry it hasn't been accepted. By taking the whole Bible in context, we see that baptism is regenerative. Dying with Christ he destroys our death, rising with Christ he restores our life. Baptism of course, brings rebirth. Only a few avid fundamentalists who's entire existance is based off of the protest of the Bride of Christ using the inspired Word of God which the Bride of Christ gave to them, disagree.

God Bless,
Adam

[Brother Adam]

btw, my offer still stands, free copy of "Theology of the Body" on cd. Just PM me if you are interested.

[Briguy]

Hi Adam, Where's your sense of humor. Your young and have so much to look forward to. Don't be old and grouchy before your time.

What I said was that the sexual relations in a marriage are to deter LUST! That is not the only function but according to Paul it is one legitimate function. I have said that consistantly. You have offered basically no defense for what Paul has said and its contradictions to what the Catholic Church teaches and what you have said.

Because Paul says sexual relations between a husband and a wife keep LUST and Temptation away it would make sense that a method which allows for family planning, by the couple, but still allows for consisitant marital intimacy, would be acceptable in God's sight. A vasectomy seems to fit the logic and the teaching of Paul and the Bible as a whole in terms of us having free will and not being a robot in our life choices.

Adam, fertility ends, in some marriages, because of physical problems, fertility never begins. Some woman have to have a total Hysterectomy early in life. They have no chance of bearing a child. Are you saying that the 25 year old new bride, that had a hysterectomy, at age 22 should not have sex on her wedding night???? or the 50 year old woman whose child bearing days have just past should no longer "know" her husband?? Is that what you are saying ADAM????

Consider your answer in light of Paul's teaching.

Thanks for the good debate!

In Christian Love and concern,
Brian

[burnsspivey]

[quote name='crusader1234' date='Apr 4 2005, 10:11 PM'] I don't buy that answer. I've never heard of somebody being able to afford a vasectomy but not a reversal. As far as I know, atoning for sin doesn't have to be cheap and easy. [/quote]
Generally a vasectomy is covered by insurance whereas a reversal is usually not.

[Briguy]

Hi Adam, still waiting for your reply. Thanks

In Christ,
Brian

[crusader1234]

[quote name='burnsspivey' date='Apr 12 2005, 11:58 AM'] Generally a vasectomy is covered by insurance whereas a reversal is usually not. [/quote]
Either way, atoning for sin does NOT have to be cheap and easy.

[cmotherofpirl]

Briguy please post the specific scriptures you want to discuss.

[Brother Adam]

[quote]Hi Adam, Where's your sense of humor. Your young and have so much to look forward to. Don't be old and grouchy before your time. [/quote]

I found it a riot to watch sisters in full habit play ultimate frisbee. I've never in my life met people who are more joyful than those choosing to live their whole lives in service to Christ and freely choosing virginity, having been given such a beautiful gift.

[quote]You have offered basically no defense for what Paul has said and its contradictions to what the Catholic Church teaches and what you have said.[/quote]

The Catholic Church, not the Catholic Church. This is simply one rite within the Catholic Church. That aside, I offered proof that you have yet to address. Marriage is not to deter lust. If you are married so you don't lust, you are married for the wrong reason.

[quote]Because Paul says sexual relations between a husband and a wife keep LUST and Temptation away it would make sense that a method which allows for family planning, by the couple, but still allows for consisitant marital intimacy, would be acceptable in God's sight. A vasectomy seems to fit the logic and the teaching of Paul and the Bible as a whole in terms of us having free will and not being a robot in our life choices.[/quote]

You are misquoting Paul. Moses gave the Hebrews permission to write a bill of divorce. Is divorce a blessing? There is a way to plan your family, it's called Natural Family Planning. Natural.....

A vasectomy is a destruction of the beauty God has created in your body. God did not create your body partially good, or sometimes good, God created man and saw he IS good. Marriage makes a man and woman co-creators with God. Eve bore a child and saw that "a man" had come from her. I challenge you to try to set a biblically precedence that children are not a blessing and destroying your fertility is a natural outpouring of God's grace.

Even in marriage man and woman are called to live CHASTE lives. If the only way a man can avoid lust is to have intercourse something is wrong. Lust is a sin and must be combatted through spiritual warfare. Sex to lust is a bandaid. It will come back in a day or too. True freedom from lust is found through prayer, through calling on the name of Jesus. There is no substitute for a strong spiritual life. We are called to holiness in our whole lives.

[quote]Adam, fertility ends, in some marriages, because of physical problems, fertility never begins. Some woman have to have a total Hysterectomy early in life. They have no chance of bearing a child. Are you saying that the 25 year old new bride, that had a hysterectomy, at age 22 should not have sex on her wedding night????[/quote]

If a woman due to medical necessity, to save her life, requires a hysterectomy, of course, she should get one. She has done nothing to prevent having children for her own personal pleasure or convenience. Remember I mentioned we are called to live chaste lives even IN marriage.

[quote]or the 50 year old woman whose child bearing days have just past should no longer "know" her husband??    Is that what you are saying ADAM????[/quote]

Sarah thought she was past the age of bearing children too.

And of course I am saying that destroying your fertility and refusing to offer your whole self to your wife so you can have sex and feel good whenever you want is sinful. I am also saying that there is a such thing as responsible parenthood, and if someone has good cause to avoid a child for a period of time, they can do that naturally, morally, and for free. And in doing that a woman will come to learn much more about her own body, a man will come to respect his wife even more, and they will experience even greater graces from God. God blesses his faithful. I've lived it and am still living it.

I do hope you will consider Paul's teachings. Because he is not telling you to run out and get a vasectomy.

Blessings,
Adam

[Brother Adam]

Should add - I'm writing a 10 page paper on a catechesis of my choice; a 5 page paper on the spirituality of the religious educator centered in Christ; I will be finishing the Bible (we are read through Genesis-John so far); and preparing for 6 final exams in the next three weeks. I will then be taking a 3 week intensive content course; followed by a ten week intensive Greek course (Greek 1- Greek IV in ten glorious weeks!) so I might be a bit sparse. Actually I should be doing homework right now. I'll go now. :tiphat:

Edited April 13, 2005 by Brother Adam

[Briguy]

Hi Adam, Thank you for the response. I realize you are busy so it makes me appreciate your response even more. You made some good points. I will ponder some and get back to you when I can. As for the two examples I gave you: Your first answer was this:

"If a woman due to medical necessity, to save her life, requires a hysterectomy, of course, she should get one. She has done nothing to prevent having children for her own personal pleasure or convenience. Remember I mentioned we are called to live chaste lives even IN marriage."

This was a round about answer when all you needed to do was say that Catholic teaching says the couple should not have intimacy. When people don't answer direct it is because they are not sure about or don't like their own answer. This is a tough one for you, I can tell. Call it my social worker instinct. This topic has even caused you to lose some of the wonderful charity that you normally post with. Anyway, I wonder if you could look that couple in the eye, who both at 25 years old have a beautiful wedding and reception and then leave for a romantic honeymoon only to get to their hotel , and alas can kiss but that is all. They cannot, by their Catholic Church teaching fulfill the God given desire to full give themselves to their brand new spouse. Adam, How much obedience do you think even faithful young Catholics would give to this teaching??? I'm willing to bet little to no obedience in this situation. I know what Paul would tell the couple because we have the scripture to prove it. He would say to the couple to remember "your body is no longer your own" On this part of the debate Adam, you can't win, because the scriture teaching is just too clear.

On the Vasectomoy part you have a much better argument. The part about god creating the body in its fullness and a vasectemony tampering with what God made is a good point. I have no problem saying that. I am humble enough to admit a good argument. You have not been able to say that to me, when your quote above shows what you are really thinking, at least on that one direct point.

To Adam or any Catholic brother or sister: If a baby is born with a certain birth defect, say webbed hands. (you know, skin between the fingers). The person could function in life without surgery, should they tamper with God's creation and have the skin cut so they can move their fingers better?? What about a my step dad whose heart went bad, should he not have had the heart transplant?? afterall he removed the very heart that God gave him and had it replaced.

Thanks for the good hearted debate (except for Adam's grouchiness ) . I will offer more on Adam's post later.

In Christ,
Brian

[Carrie]

[quote name='Briguy' date='Apr 13 2005, 09:50 AM'] This was a round about answer when all you needed to do was say that Catholic teaching says the couple should not have intimacy. When people don't answer direct it is because they are not sure about or don't like their own answer. This is a tough one for you, I can tell. Call it my social worker instinct. This topic has even caused you to lose some of the wonderful charity that you normally post with. Anyway, I wonder if you could look that couple in the eye, who both at 25 years old have a beautiful wedding and reception and then leave for a romantic honeymoon only to get to their hotel , and alas can kiss but that is all. They cannot, by their Catholic Church teaching fulfill the God given desire to full give themselves to their brand new spouse. Adam, How much obedience do you think even faithful young Catholics would give to this teaching??? I'm willing to bet little to no obedience in this situation. I know what Paul would tell the couple because we have the scripture to prove it. He would say to the couple to remember "your body is no longer your own" On this part of the debate Adam, you can't win, because the scriture teaching is just too clear.


[/quote]
When Adam says we need to be chaste in marriage, he doesn't mean we aren't to have marital relations with our spouses [b]at all[/b]. This is where you are mistaken. What he means is that there are times in our marriages when we should abstain because our spouses are not just to fulfill our lust. The times when we abstain should be used for strenthening our marriages with prayer and showing your love for your spouse in other ways. When you do have marital relations, you appreciate your spouse even more. This can help make your marriage even stronger.

[quote]To Adam or any Catholic brother or sister: If a baby is born with a certain birth defect, say webbed hands. (you know, skin between the fingers). The person could function in life without surgery, should they tamper with God's creation and have the skin cut so they can move their fingers better??  What about a my step dad whose heart went bad, should he not have had the heart transplant?? afterall he removed the very heart that God gave him and had it replaced. [/quote]

I don't see how this has any bearing on the conversation. By correcting a birth defect, you are helping to improve that person's quality of life. You are in no way being closed to life. By having a vasectomy, you are being closed to life, which by taking the marriage vows, you have promised to be open to life. How does your example have bearing on the topic of a vasectomy?


Thank you for being charitable as well in your posts.

God Bless,
Carrie

[Briguy]

Hi Carrie, You are right about what chaste means. The meaning can vary slightly by ones interpretation. Common meaning is below.

chaste

• adjective 1 abstaining from extramarital, or from all, sexual intercourse. 2 without unnecessary ornamentation.

In keeping with what Adam has said I believe he meant abstaining from all intercourse. Adam has said that if there is no chance at making a baby then a couple should refrain from intercourse. What you said is what Paul said. Paul said abstaining from intercourse is fine, if the couple both agrees and if it is for a set time, and if the reason is for drawing closer to God. Paul implies there should be a clear ending date and not too far in the future. This is not what Adam has been arguing or we would not be having this discussion.

Carrie, on my other questions I wasn't saying it is the same I just wanted to see how you felt about tampering with God's creation. From your answer I see that God creates imperfect people and it is Ok to have surgery to fix what He created. Therefore, God must have make mistakes if it is OK for us to get elective surgery. Carrie, this was just a concept thing I wanted to get straight and now I know, well at least what you think anyway.

I believe a vasectomy is simply an elective surgery with a purpose, much like my examples, in an abstract way of course.

more later,
Brian

[Carrie]

[quote name='Briguy' date='Apr 14 2005, 09:54 AM'] Hi Carrie, You are right about what chaste means. The meaning can vary slightly by ones interpretation. Common meaning is below.

chaste

  • adjective 1 abstaining from extramarital, or from all, sexual intercourse. 2 without unnecessary ornamentation.

In keeping with what Adam has said I believe he meant abstaining from all intercourse. Adam has said that if there is no chance at making a baby then a couple should refrain from intercourse. What you said is what Paul said. Paul said abstaining from intercourse is fine, if the couple both agrees and if it is for a set time, and if the reason is for drawing closer to God. Paul implies there should be a clear ending date and not too far in the future. This is not what Adam has been arguing or we would not be having this discussion. [/quote]
I must disagree with you. I believe the point I bring up about chastity in marriage is [b]exactly[/b] what Bro. Adam is talking about.

[quote]Carrie, on my other questions I wasn't saying it is the same I just wanted to see how you felt about tampering with God's creation. From your answer I see that God creates imperfect people and it is Ok to have surgery to fix what He created. Therefore, God must have make mistakes if it is OK for us to get elective surgery. Carrie, this was just a concept thing I wanted to get straight and now I know, well at least what you think anyway.[/quote]

I believe you are misinterpreting my views. God does not make mistakes. I believe God gave us medical knowledge as a gift. This gift should be used for good, the way all of God's gift should be used.

A vasectomy is not used for good in the eyes of God and therefore cannot be compared to correcting birth defects. A vasectomy is used to close yourself from the option of life. A vasectomy cannot help in any way. It hinders. It separates you from fully giving yourself to your wife. This kind of surgery has no good outcome in the eyes of God. Please consider the difference in both examples.

[quote]I believe a vasectomy is simply an elective surgery with a purpose, much like my examples, in an abstract way of course.[/quote]

The purpose of a vasectomy is not good in the eyes of God. We should never close ourselves to life.

God Bless,
Carrie

[cmotherofpirl]

[i]Be fruitful and multiply[/i] is not a conditional phrase.

[Briguy]

Carrie writes:

"I believe you are misinterpreting my views. God does not make mistakes. I believe God gave us medical knowledge as a gift. This gift should be used for good, the way all of God's gift should be used."

I used medical knowledge for the good of my family and had a vasectomy. The ability for that procedure is as God given as the ability to remove an appendix. My wife and I after much prayer and thought decided that 3 children was enough. We knew we would be a one income homeschool family and I am a social worker at that which means a one small income family. We cose the vasectomy route because it allowed for us to have healthy, normal maritial relations in every sense and not have to use ongoing birth control. I have said in a post before, which no one challanged BTW, that conception is one of those natural processes at work in the world. I exponded before and won't again. So as non-robots in God's creation we chose the vasectomoy route rather then birth control pills, etc... This way, we were able to plan our family, as each couple should do and keep within the scriptual guidelines of Paul. It was a win win situation for us.

As for birth defects, if God personally causes every pregnancy and makes every child/person then if a child comes out with something wrong you could not have that problem fixed without saying first that God made a mistake. That is just logical. If I draw a picture of a tree and it is lopsided you would say I messed up the drawing. The point is that God allows natural processes to work and allows us to do things within those processes that benefit our situation. Obviousily within His guidelines, as defined by scripture. Having elective surgery to repair birth defects is obviously the best thing to do for the child and the right thing.

more later,
In Christ,
Brian

[Brother Adam]

There is nothing natural about artifical birth control, or ripping your body open and cutting tubes apart. It is 'control' not freedom. By having a vascetomy you have refused to allow God to be in control of your family. Your same rational can be used for abortion. "I did not choose to have this child, so I will you my medical knowledge to kill him/her. It's only natural." I can understand your absolute refusal to be open to the Word of God though, if I was in your shoes I would not want anyone, much less the Word of God to tell me I was wrong, that would require me to let go of my own selfish pride and consider that I am not my own final authority in matters of faith and morals.

Carrie almost hit the nail on the head. Short periods of abstience are healthy for a marriage. You claim you have a healthy marriage, but you have no clue what one looks like. You have not experienced it because you don't understand how to offer up to God the gifts he has given to you, instead you live for yourself. I have a good friend who has 8 children, his wife doesn't work, and he has one full time job at Wal-mart. And he does just fine. They aren't on welfare either. Americans are so used to luxury they no longer understand what 'necessity' means. They believe nice house, TV's, computers, nice cars, and so on are bare necessities when indeed they are not. If you make over 20,000 a year you are filthy rich by over 5/6 of the worlds standards.

You claim that you are following 'God's standards' because you were able to look in the Bible and figure out a way to curse fertility and make it work for you. Good job. People twist scripture all the time, 9/10's of the time not even realizing they are doing it.

Living chaste within a marriage means understand that marriage isn't simply about having sex and getting pleasure from that sex. Chastity does not = no intercourse. Virginity, in a the true sense of the word does not even = a person who has not had sexual intercourse. Our "American" sense of sexual freedom has left millions of people in the bonds of sin. Protestant Churches which seek to be "people pleasers" instead of God pleasers have allowed just about everything under the sun. There were means of contracepting back in the time of Christ, yet the concept of contracepting was considered sinful by anyone who ever carried the name 'Christian' until the 1930's. And of course the Protestant Churches, being people pleasers, said "You want it! We will make a way to make the Scriptures let you have it!" It's why tens of thousands are flocking back to the Church they know seeks God's will every year, including hundreds of Fundamentalist pastors.

A medical procedure to cure a defect that is HARMFUL to LIFE and DESTROYING the means of LIFE are two totally opposite concepts. Saving life through medical practice is a moral good. DESTROYING the means of life in a person, destroying fertility, by every biblical and historical standard, except by Satanists and Pagans is EVIL. "Obviously" as you say, you have no sense of understand what the scriptures say about the SANTITY of LIFE.

[Brother Adam]

There is nothing natural about artifical birth control, or ripping your body open and cutting tubes apart. It is 'control' not freedom. By having a vascetomy you have refused to allow God to be in control of your family. Your same rational can be used for abortion. "I did not choose to have this child, so I will you my medical knowledge to kill him/her. It's only natural." I can understand your absolute refusal to be open to the Word of God though, if I was in your shoes I would not want anyone, much less the Word of God to tell me I was wrong, that would require me to let go of my own selfish pride and consider that I am not my own final authority in matters of faith and morals.

Carrie almost hit the nail on the head. Short periods of abstience are healthy for a marriage. You claim you have a healthy marriage, but you have no clue what one looks like. You have not experienced it because you don't understand how to offer up to God the gifts he has given to you, instead you live for yourself. I have a good friend who has 8 children, his wife doesn't work, and he has one full time job at Wal-mart. And he does just fine. They aren't on welfare either. Americans are so used to luxury they no longer understand what 'necessity' means. They believe nice house, TV's, computers, nice cars, and so on are bare necessities when indeed they are not. If you make over 20,000 a year you are filthy rich by over 5/6 of the worlds standards.

You claim that you are following 'God's standards' because you were able to look in the Bible and figure out a way to curse fertility and make it work for you. Good job. People twist scripture all the time, 9/10's of the time not even realizing they are doing it.

Living chaste within a marriage means understand that marriage isn't simply about having sex and getting pleasure from that sex. Chastity does not = no intercourse. Virginity, in a the true sense of the word does not even = a person who has not had sexual intercourse. Our "American" sense of sexual freedom has left millions of people in the bonds of sin. Protestant Churches which seek to be "people pleasers" instead of God pleasers have allowed just about everything under the sun. There were means of contracepting back in the time of Christ, yet the concept of contracepting was considered sinful by anyone who ever carried the name 'Christian' until the 1930's. And of course the Protestant Churches, being people pleasers, said "You want it! We will make a way to make the Scriptures let you have it!" It's why tens of thousands are flocking back to the Church they know seeks God's will every year, including hundreds of Fundamentalist pastors.

A medical procedure to cure a defect that is HARMFUL to LIFE and DESTROYING the means of LIFE are two totally opposite concepts. Saving life through medical practice is a moral good. DESTROYING the means of life in a person, destroying fertility, by every biblical and historical standard, except by Satanists and Pagans is EVIL. "Obviously" as you say, you have no sense of understand what the scriptures say about the SANTITY of LIFE.

[Brother Adam]

There is nothing natural about artifical birth control, or ripping your body open and cutting tubes apart. It is 'control' not freedom. By having a vascetomy you have refused to allow God to be in control of your family. Your same rational can be used for abortion. "I did not choose to have this child, so I will you my medical knowledge to kill him/her. It's only natural." I can understand your absolute refusal to be open to the Word of God though, if I was in your shoes I would not want anyone, much less the Word of God to tell me I was wrong, that would require me to let go of my own selfish pride and consider that I am not my own final authority in matters of faith and morals.

Carrie almost hit the nail on the head. Short periods of abstience are healthy for a marriage. You claim you have a healthy marriage, but you have no clue what one looks like. You have not experienced it because you don't understand how to offer up to God the gifts he has given to you, instead you live for yourself. I have a good friend who has 8 children, his wife doesn't work, and he has one full time job at Wal-mart. And he does just fine. They aren't on welfare either. Americans are so used to luxury they no longer understand what 'necessity' means. They believe nice house, TV's, computers, nice cars, and so on are bare necessities when indeed they are not. If you make over 20,000 a year you are filthy rich by over 5/6 of the worlds standards.

You claim that you are following 'God's standards' because you were able to look in the Bible and figure out a way to curse fertility and make it work for you. Good job. People twist scripture all the time, 9/10's of the time not even realizing they are doing it.

Living chaste within a marriage means understand that marriage isn't simply about having sex and getting pleasure from that sex. Chastity does not = no intercourse. Virginity, in a the true sense of the word does not even = a person who has not had sexual intercourse. Our "American" sense of sexual freedom has left millions of people in the bonds of sin. Protestant Churches which seek to be "people pleasers" instead of God pleasers have allowed just about everything under the sun. There were means of contracepting back in the time of Christ, yet the concept of contracepting was considered sinful by anyone who ever carried the name 'Christian' until the 1930's. And of course the Protestant Churches, being people pleasers, said "You want it! We will make a way to make the Scriptures let you have it!" It's why tens of thousands are flocking back to the Church they know seeks God's will every year, including hundreds of Fundamentalist pastors.

A medical procedure to cure a defect that is HARMFUL to LIFE and DESTROYING the means of LIFE are two totally opposite concepts. Saving life through medical practice is a moral good. DESTROYING the means of life in a person, destroying fertility, by every biblical and historical standard, except by Satanists and Pagans is EVIL. "Obviously" as you say, you have no sense of understand what the scriptures say about the SANTITY of LIFE.

[Carrie]

Thank you Bro. Adam. You have very eloquently expressed what I was trying to convey.

[Brother Adam]

I apologize for the repeats...over....and over....and over again. lol. I blame the school computer for it


and blah, the keys don't work well on those keyboards. SANTITY should of course read SANCTITY.

It can be frustrating at times when a person cannot fully express the inexpressible. I come from a marriage that started in the Baptist denomination, and we used birth control. Our marriage was happy, and we loved each other, and we exprienced joy in our marriage. But the depth to the joy and the intimacy that we discovered when we followed God's plan for marriage and procreation is staggering. It is inexpressable and beautiful and I could only want the same beauty for every other married couple that I know. I'm finishing an exposition on spousal love for my philosophy class and will expand that to understand the theology of the body and why contraception is an intrinsic evil and post it on my website towards the end of the summer after Greek is over. I urge Protestants to consider even the founders of their own religions and what they say about birth control in the book "The Bible and Birth Control" by a protestant named Pavon.

And it is unfortunate that Protestants think Catholics are completely against planning a family. Totally the opposite. It is irresponsible not to appropriately plan a family. However, something that is evil cannot be used to try to reach a means that is good. Basic moral principles. Natural Family Planning today is encouraged, it is scientific, it is natural and moral, when used correctly it is 95-99% effective, and best of all it is free. And I think even better through planning a family naturally a man and woman learn about their bodies, who they are, and who they are to each other in such deep ways it only increases their love and joy for each other all the more.

Edited April 15, 2005 by Brother Adam