Protestants

[RandomProddy]

[quote name='Priscilla' date='Apr 15 2005, 11:39 AM'] IT IS NOT JUST ABOUT PROTESTANT HAVING A REBELLIOUS NATURE. [/quote]
But where's the fun in that?

[Priscilla]

[quote name='RandomProddy' date='Apr 15 2005, 08:51 AM'] But where's the fun in that? [/quote]
What do you mean "fun"? I'm serious.

[Brother Adam]

"- some quite like Catholicism, but can't go along with the idolatry and ritual"

Do you still have some argument that points to Catholics teaching that we are to worship Mary? I thought this argument was debunked?

[Brother Adam]

"Please do not think that they are rebellious and against God. There are many nuances and situations which affect a person's belief-system and which labels them as a "protestant" - you can not generalise, or judge. "

I don't 'judge'. I was a Protestant almost my whole life. Look up some of my posts from a year or two ago. I was rippin' on some of these Catholics here. It takes a soft, humble heart, open to intellectual honesty and truth to come into full communion with the Bride of Christ, the Church. It isn't easy or painless. But it is worth it.

[Dudette]

[quote name='mulls' date='Apr 14 2005, 01:47 PM'] don't let anyone look down on you cuz you're young. go on wit yer bad self. [/quote]

[Priscilla]

[quote name='Brother Adam' date='Apr 15 2005, 12:30 PM'] "- some quite like Catholicism, but can't go along with the idolatry and ritual"

Do you still have some argument that points to Catholics teaching that we are to worship Mary? I thought this argument was debunked? [/quote]
It may be debunked as far as Catholics are concerned - but it remains a [b]major issue[/b] for many "prots": sweeping it under the carpet won't make it go away.

If the Catholic church seriously wants to evangelise protestants you're gonna have to face up to that issue. But I doubt it would ever happen (unless a Pope instigated it).

You see you have to remember this: for many prots the veneration of Mary and the dead saints IS idolatry. Period. If they are wrong about that belief and rot in hell for it, then God can break His own rules, but God knows the intentions of their heart: prots (most of them anyhow: some High Anglicans would) will not bow the knee or pray to anyone except God alone.

[Brother Adam]

It only remains idolatry if a person absolutely refuses to be honest. Catholics have not swept the issue under the rug, but have clearly and articulately explained the doctrine of prayerful intercession. The absolute only way to consider saintly intercession idolatry is to also consider have a prayer request list in church idolatry, or asking your family and friends for prayer idolatry, because it is the exact same thing.

I've posted this b/f and I'll post it again:

[quote] Catholics are often accused of worshipping Mary, bread and wine, and even the Pope. At worst they are accused of worshipping Satan. However, it is essential to understand worship. An act of worship is in essence an action that we do, either in thought or movement, to recognize someone or something as deity or as having a power of which only God alone can have. If I bow before the Queen of England as a sign of respect and reverence, I have not committed idolatry. This is because the intention of which I bow is not to recognize the Queen of England as God, but to recognize her as a ruling authority over part of God's creation. It is done in respect and reverence. If I bow in front of a statue of Mary or Joseph, as long as I do not intend to worship them, I am not committing idolatry. The intention behind which an action is done is very important to understand if the action is worship, or if it is out of respect or honor.

Numbers 22:31
Then the Lord opened the eyes of Balaam, and he saw the angel of the Lord standing in the way, with his drawn sword in his hand. And he bowed down and fell on his face.

Rev. 22:8-9
I, John, am the one who heard and saw these things. And when I heard and saw them, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who showed them to me, but he said to me, "You must not do that! I am a fellow servant with you and your brothers the prophets, and with those who keep the words of this book. Worship God."

In both of these instances two people bow down to an angel. Balaam was permitted to do so because he bowed in fear, honor, and reverence. John tried to bow in worship. This was not permitted. So we see that even in the same action, in this case bowing, it may or may not be worship depending on the persons intentions.

Acts 10:25-26
When Peter entered, Cornelius met him and fell down at his feet and worshiped him. But Peter lifted him up, saying, "Stand up; I too am a man."

Same thing. Cornelius tried to worship Peter, so Peter did not allow it. The Pope may allow someone to bow in respect before him, but if the Pope senses the person trying to worship him, he would naturally stop it immediately.

Acts 12:21-23
On an appointed day Herod put on his royal robes, took his seat upon the throne, and delivered an oration to them. And the people were shouting, "The voice of a god, and not of a man!" Immediately an angel of the Lord struck him down, because he did not give God the glory, and he was eaten by worms and breathed his last.

Herod accepted worship, and thus was struck dead by God. [/quote]

No one has offered any proof - none - that saintly intercession is idolatry arguing from what Catholics believe, and not from their own misguided idea of what they think Catholics believe.

[FutureSoror]

Something to think about here:

We Catholics are not just playing around with words to say that praying for saints' intercesion and venerating Mary is not worship. We know by the way that we daily practice our Faith that the worship we give to God though Mass, the Sacraments, and just all around, is high above the veneration and prayers directed at saints. The Church's worship of God is such that you just couldn't convince a good Catholic that what they showed to saints is equal to it.

We try to explain it with words, but please know that it is much more than that. It is something that we (or I, at least) just know, deep down, from being a life-long Catholic raised by good Catholic parents.

[Priscilla]

Thanks Bro. Adam and FutureSoror - you just need to convince about a couple of million prots of it!!

[Brother Adam]

It takes one person at a time. Neither Neal4Christ nor I were convinced until we were willing to give the Church a chance to speak, and were willing to listen, even if we did at first intend to reject what she said. I'm watching my best friend transform before my eyes and I gradually and in stages reveal to him what the Church actually teaches. While he is dead set against the idea of ever joining the Church, his heart, like so many others, like mine did, is softening to the truth.

And it is more around 7,000,000 protestants But compare that number to the number of Catholics - 1,000,000,000

Now if we could only properly catechize all of them.

[RandomProddy]

What's wrong with praying to saints again?

[Priscilla]

[quote name='RandomProddy' date='Apr 16 2005, 07:38 PM'] What's wrong with praying to saints again? [/quote]
They're dead.

[Fides_et_Ratio]

[quote name='Priscilla' date='Apr 17 2005, 11:43 AM'] They're dead. [/quote]
Our souls don't die.

[Priscilla]

[quote name='Fides_et_Ratio' date='Apr 17 2005, 11:49 AM'] Our souls don't die. [/quote]
God says they do: "The soul that sinneth, it shall die"

I know what you mean - I don't know: I tend toward believing that death is a sleep.

Nevertheless I do believe that blessed are those who die in the Lord, and that our "breath" "ruach" goes back to God.

What I do NOT believe is that we have some immortal soul which floats up to heaven when we die and we can look down on earth and watch everything going on: because God has told us "No man has ascended into heaven". Only the Lord Jesus of course.

[Guest Eremite]

The "death" of the body is the separation of body and soul. The "death" of the soul is the separation of the soul from supernatural life, that is, from God (aka hell).

Those in Heaven do in fact know the goings on of earth. But Heaven is not about floating around looking down on earth, but about an eternal communion of love between God and each person who has opened themselves up to his life.

"There is greater joy in Heaven over one soul who repents, then over ninety-nine righteous ones who have no need of repentance". How can the people in Heaven rejoice over what happens on earth unless they know what's going on on earth?