Do we have enough reason to believe in God?

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Melchisedec' date='Apr 15 2005, 05:25 PM'] You believe this because you will always presume that their has to be Yahweh. [/quote]
No, I believe this because as a categorical definition, God is eternal, and therefore, man, who is not eternal, could never create God, but only a concept of God.

[Melchisedec]

[quote name='infinitelord1' date='Apr 15 2005, 04:11 PM'] Melchisedec,


how do you propose the universe was created? [/quote]
I don't have a theory because we don't know. You can choose whichever creation story you'd like, but it still doesn't prove it. Especially if you believe in the literal account of the bible, it simply does not hold up to scrutiny. Its a mystery and it remains one.

[Melchisedec]

[quote name='Raphael' date='Apr 15 2005, 04:34 PM'] No, I believe this because as a categorical definition, God is eternal, and therefore, man, who is not eternal, could never create God, but only a concept of God. [/quote]
For a theist maybe.

[Melchisedec]

How can there be one definition for god considering there thousands of them.

[Semalsia]

[quote name='Melchisedec']How can there be one definition for god considering there thousands of them.[/quote]

Infinite and creator of everything?

She's right, Mel, if God exists then it is necessary that God existed first before everything else. Otherwise God would not be creator of everything.

[Fidei Defensor]

I think he meant man created the concept of a god.

But Mel, without man, there would be some kind of creator, since you yourself said that you would accept the idea of something that somehow started the process of the universe. not necesarily a god in your eyes though.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Melchisedec' date='Apr 15 2005, 05:36 PM'] For a theist maybe. [/quote]
How could anyone else's categorical definition for God not include the trait: eternal?

[Melchisedec]

[quote name='fidei defensor' date='Apr 15 2005, 05:05 PM'] I think he meant man created the concept of a god.

But Mel, without man, there would be some kind of creator, since you yourself said that you would accept the idea of something that somehow started the process of the universe. not necesarily a god in your eyes though. [/quote]
Because I reserve my final judgement on a creator does not mean I believe in one and that there has to be one. Right now there is no evidence for a creator. But maybe in the future there might. I choose to reserve my final judgement on that. I think we have alot more work to do to uncover the nature of our universe. There is certainly alot to learn that could be definitive. We could very well answer the question conclusively and end the debate forever. But does Yahweh exist imo, certainly not and Yahweh is the god in which we speak of.

Edited April 15, 2005 by Melchisedec

[Melchisedec]

[quote name='Raphael' date='Apr 15 2005, 05:14 PM'] How could anyone else's categorical definition for God not include the trait: eternal? [/quote]
Gods born of other gods, gods that die. There are many gods who have characterisitic that defy your standards. These gods fit under the accepted definition of god.

[Melchisedec]

Btw, there is a show tonite about creationism on Infidelguy. You can stream it for free. 8pm EST, link below.

[infinitelord1]

melchisedec,


there is a book that gives an explanation to who we are and where we came from. There is no book that explains that we always existed or there is no creator. So, technically, we have more reason to believe that there is a god than you do that there is no god, or to believe that we just dont know.

[Melchisedec]

[quote name='infinitelord1' date='Apr 15 2005, 06:14 PM'] there is a book that gives an explanation to who we are and where we came from. [/quote]
There are books , a great many of them. They have as much right to claim their book, as you do yours. Just because its a book with an explanation doesn't make it true.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Melchisedec' date='Apr 15 2005, 06:34 PM'] Btw, there is a show tonite about creationism on Infidelguy. You can stream it for free. 8pm EST, link below. [/quote]
I saw a scholarship for infidelguy...I don't get atheists...it's so goofy and completely overlooks the evidence, miracles, and other things.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Melchisedec' date='Apr 15 2005, 06:29 PM'] Gods born of other gods, gods that die. There are many gods who have characterisitic that defy your standards. These gods fit under the accepted definition of god. [/quote]
1. These gods were based on human or animal characteristics. We preach a God who is without sin or evil.

2. These gods are no longer accepted and by the current meaning of the term God (which I presumed we were using), God is infinite, eternal, omnipotent, omniscient, etc. But perhaps it would be better to come up with our own term so that we can have a common understanding of what we mean be "God" in this debate. How's "Yahweh"? I think that "I Am Who Am," which reveals a single God wo is the source and summit of existence, is perhaps the best way, especially considering that we are debating His existence.

[Melchisedec]

[quote]God is infinite, eternal, omnipotent, omniscient, etc.  But perhaps it would be better to come up with our own term so that we can have a common understanding of what we mean be "God" in this debate. [/quote]



God:
[i]
A being conceived of as possessing supernatural power, and to be propitiated by sacrifice, worship, etc.; a divinity; a deity; an object of worship; an idol
[/i]

I'm not making a definition up just to suit my needs.
[url="http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&oi=defmore&q=define:god"]Google definitions[/url]

Now you don't believe in Hindu gods simply because they can take forms of animals? They may not meet your distinct definition of god, but that doesn't remove the fact that they are within the confines of the definition.

[quote]
How's "Yahweh"?  I[/quote]

You are not familiar with the name of the old testament god?

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Melchisedec' date='Apr 15 2005, 08:42 PM'] God:
[i]A being conceived of as possessing supernatural power, and to be propitiated by sacrifice, worship, etc.; a divinity; a deity; an object of worship; an idol[/i]

I'm not making a definition up just to suit my needs.
[url="http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&oi=defmore&q=define:god"]Google definitions[/url]

Now you don't believe in Hindu gods simply because they can take forms of animals? They may not meet your distinct definition of god, but that doesn't remove the fact that they are within the confines of the definition. [/quote]
This is a Catholic website and we're talking about the Catholic God, not pagan deities, idols, demigods, pseudogods, or anything else. We are talking about God, not a god.

We agree with you that pagan gods don't exist. It's obvious that they have nothing to do with the debate.

[quote]You are not familiar with the name of the old testament god?[/quote]

I'm very familiar with Him and His Holy Name. My point was to find a definition for the Catholic ideal of God...I think Yahweh is the simplest, upon which all other aspects of God can be based.

[Melchisedec]

Since we have agree upon to discuss your god. I ask, why is there reason to believe in Yahweh?

[infinitelord1]

as human beings we have a concept of right and wrong.

My question to you melchisedec.........where did this come from? Did a couple of people sit down one day and say that we are going to designate things into two categories, and the names of these categories will be "right" and "wrong"? Or would it make more sense to believe that a god set the standard of right and wrong by communicating with his people. If this to you is more thesible then dont you think yahweh would be the only god that stands for "truth" or maybe a better way to say this "god of truth"(what is right). If you can name another god that is a god of truth then i would like to know.

[infinitelord1]

Now I think that you see yahweh no differently than any of the other gods that man has worshipped throughout history. (this is the attitude that i am picking up from you). Going back to the yahweh being "God of truth" concept.....lets say that yahweh was one of many gods.......since he is the god of truth he doesnt tell any lies, right?......in the bible yahweh reveals himself as the only god and we shouldnt worship any other gods besides him. Since Yahweh is the god of truth this must be the truth. The only flaw that i see in this explanation would be proving the validity of the bible. That I personally cant do. I can proove that there was a man named jesus....since the bible is not the only source that says that, but i cant proove that he did miracles......isnt a miracle something that cannot be explained though? So really it is pointless to question whether or not these were miracles since it will never be proven, and even if you were there to see it......I think you would still doubt what you saw. Jesus even said it himself that nothing will ever prove gods existence.......no matter what people will always expect more proof. I think that the more you learn and the more things make sense to you......the harder it is to deny that there is a god.....since it makes so much logical sense and it never contradicts itself. I think you as an atheist........if you were to give the belief in god a chance, and learn more.........i think your doubts would slowly start to grow into faith.

[Melchisedec]

[quote]as human beings we have a concept of right and wrong.

My question to you melchisedec.........where did this come from? Did a couple of people sit down one day and say that we are going to designate things into two categories, and the names of these categories will be "right" and "wrong"?[/quote]

This has been a debate since socrates and the other great philosophers. If you believe that god sets the standards on whats right and wrong than I ask you. Lets say you and a baby are in a room. You kill the baby, was that wrong? I would say yes it was. Now lets say god asked you to kill that baby. Now the act is no longer wrong. God can make morals arbitrary. I think the human mind can abstract whats right and wrong. But I do understand that many people feel that god must exist to define morals or everything it reduced to relativism. Its an interesting debate.


[quote] Or would it make more sense to believe that a god set the standard of right and wrong by communicating with his people. If this to you is more thesible then dont you think yahweh would be the only god that stands for "truth" or maybe a better way to say this "god of truth"(what is right). If you can name another god that is a god of truth then i would like to know.[/quote]

Allah, Krishna, Zeus.