Do we have enough reason to believe in God?

[Melchisedec]

[quote]Now I think that you see yahweh no differently than any of the other gods that man has worshipped throughout history. (this is the attitude that i am picking up from you). Going back to the yahweh being "God of truth" concept.....lets say that yahweh was one of many gods.......since he is the god of truth he doesnt tell any lies, right?[/quote]

Why because he says so?

[quote]......in the bible yahweh reveals himself as the only god and we shouldnt worship any other gods besides him. Since Yahweh is the god of truth this must be the truth.[/quote]

This logic is absurd. Because I tell you I am a fish does that make me a fish. If I tell you, god commands me and you should listen to my ever beckon call. Do you follow me?

[quote] The only flaw that i see in this explanation would be proving the validity of the bible. That I personally cant do. I can proove that there was a man named jesus....since the bible is not the only source that says that, but i cant proove that he did miracles......isnt a miracle something that cannot be explained though? So really it is pointless to question whether or not these were miracles since it will never be proven, and even if you were there to see it......I think you would still doubt what you saw.[/quote]

If a man performed amazing miracles and thousands saw these miracles. I would think there would exist other sources of corroboration to these miracles. And to assume I would doubt a miracle if i saw one is speculative. I would ofcourse question what I saw, but I wouldn't explain it away for the sake of denouncing it. If I saw something that defied natural law and science, I would be compelled to believe it.


[quote] Jesus even said it himself that nothing will ever prove gods existence.......no matter what people will always expect more proof. I think that the more you learn and the more things make sense to you......the harder it is to deny that there is a god.....since it makes so much logical sense and it never contradicts itself. I think you as an atheist........if you were to give the belief in god a chance, and learn more.........i think your doubts would slowly start to grow into faith.[/quote]

I think you fail to realize that I was a christian for most of my life. I had the same faith as everyone. The same feelings of spirit, and so on. The more I learned the more things did not make sense. Hence I am what I am now. If you want to believe in it, there is nothing stopping you. To you it makes alot more logical sense, because you have always presumed a god. Take it out of the equation and your world is upside down. If you want to believe by all means do. But this little Q & A we are having is serving no reason whatsoever. Embrace your faith and move on with your life.

[Jaime]

Interesting stuff.

Melchisidec debates better than any athiest I've met before. Probably because he argues from a different premise than most.

Here's something that I will freely admit. We cannot empirically or scientifically prove without a shadow of doubt that there is a God. To do so, we would have to be able to provide an experiment where we could control an environment then introduce or withdraw the variable (i.e. God). Since we believe God is everywhere, we have no controlled study. There is no controlled environment where God cannot exist.

But its set up that way isn't it? We can look at all the evidence objectively, but the final answer (conversion or not) is ultimately subjective. It is a matter of faith. Its that way by design folks. God could resolve the debate in a heartbeat. But that would infringe upon our free will wouldn't it? So we must muddle along.

There are events that have happened in my life that demonstrate to me without a doubt that there is God. Real, practical, "reach out and touch faith" kind of events. I also know that it is extremely unlikely that anything that I say will transform another individual into becoming a believer. It is in what I do. It is in how I act. It is the example that I strive to set in my own life.

Don't get me wrong. I love to yammer on and on about my faith. But I know its mostly for me.

[infinitelord1]

if you were to tell me that you were a fish that would be a lie.......the "the god of truth" tells no lies.

[infinitelord1]

this debate is pointless because you will never change your beliefs

[Melchisedec]

[quote name='infinitelord1' date='Apr 18 2005, 12:28 PM'] if you were to tell me that you were a fish that would be a lie.......the "the god of truth" tells no lies. [/quote]
The 'god of truth' tells no lies because he calls himself the 'god of truth' and declares he tells no lies. You ask a muslim if allah is the god of lies, and I shudder at the response.

[Melchisedec]

[quote name='infinitelord1' date='Apr 18 2005, 12:30 PM'] this debate is pointless because you will never change your beliefs [/quote]
Besides your poor skills of trying to make a point. Its crystal clear that you have already led yourself to a conclusion. Why even ask these questions if you have an answer for all of them? Submit to your faith, and worry about school and getting good grades since you couldn't prove your own existence if you tired. I mean that in the most endearing way.

In reason...

[mortify]

"Reason"...hmm...is it reasonable to think a glass of water will quench my thirst? Is the existence of thirst itself a suggestion that something must exist to quench it? These were some of my thoughts when reflecting on some bizarre epiphanies I had while an atheist.

I was not a passive atheist, I utterly rejected the existence of the Divine. My rejection was so deep that it consequently led me to the rejection of other things, namely love, truth, purpose, and knowledge (I used to paradoxically say, "The only truth is there is no truth"). At the time I was satisfied with the knowledge the sciences provided, thought evolution was the end all to all questions (ha!). It made me see no reason to believe in God, and further, no evidence for God.

Yet...oddly.....

Every now and then, perhaps just thinking to myself quietly before going to sleep, I would say, "There MUST be a God" or "at least the possibility of God existing must be real." Strange, I did not realize then what I do now: Being that I saw no physical, scientific, or otherwise rational evidence to believe in God, WHAT was making me believe? Perhaps it was Divine inspiration: He flashes lightning in our dark hearts to give us a taste of Light. Or perhaps belief is Natural: somehow even the atheist is familiar with the concept of God, never have I met someone who was unaware of Him, though not everyone accepts Him. Belief is natural though we are forgetful, God reminds us with revelation, prophets, and the righteous but He also does so through inspiration. As an atheist these "Moments in the Light" occured every now and then, since taking steps towards God they happen more often.

My dialogues with atheists have shown I was not alone, many admitted similar lapses in disbelief others have suggested it indirectly. After the usual tirade against God's existence many atheists seem to WANT to believe, as if they are desperately searching for some proof that will make them see as we See. They already believe, it would be easier is they stopped fighting themselves.

Edited April 18, 2005 by mortify