Execute Them!

[Carrie]

[quote name='Socrates' date='Apr 27 2005, 02:06 PM'] Weak argument (and one that has been used both ways).
People can repent (or not repent) in a few days or many years.
Personally I think they will be more likely to change if given the death penalty. Knowing that one has only so many days to live has a way of focusing one's mind on the Last Things. [/quote]
It's not a weak argument, but an argument that focuses on God's will (which we cannot assume anything about).

How do you know whether or not they would repent in a few days or maybe a few years down the line? It's not for you to know, but for God. Personally, I'd never want to take the chance that I had something to do with the execution of someone and possibly taking that chance away from them.

And if you want to take this from a non-religious viewpoint, keep in mind that executing one person costs more than keeping that same person in prison for life.

Execution is a lose-lose situation, no matter how you look at it.

[Aloysius]

[quote name='Carrie' date='Apr 27 2005, 09:10 AM'] If you automatically execute them, you strip their chances of ever reconciling with God.

Some of these people do repent for their sins. It is not up to us to take that chance away from them. [/quote]
traditional Catholic Teaching has always held it to be highly virtuous to repent and accept death as your just punishment like the Good Theif on the Cross. it's known as expiation, and the reason it's God's will is that God gives such authority to the state.

for more info on the death penalty in general, Avery Cardinal Dulles has a good artical [url="http://www.firstthings.com/ftissues/ft0104/articles/dulles.html"]http://www.firstthings.com/ftissues/ft0104...les/dulles.html[/url]

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Carrie' date='Apr 27 2005, 02:13 PM'] It's not a weak argument, but an argument that focuses on God's will (which we cannot assume anything about).

How do you know whether or not they would repent in a few days or maybe a few years down the line?  It's not for you to know, but for God.  Personally, I'd never want to take the chance that I had something to do with the execution of someone and possibly taking that chance away from them. 

And if you want to take this from a non-religious viewpoint, keep in mind that executing one person costs more than keeping that same person in prison for life. 

Execution is a lose-lose situation, no matter how you look at it. [/quote]
Cardinal Dulles disagrees with you.
He said knowing the date of your death can wonderfully focus your mind on the last things.

Edited April 27, 2005 by cmotherofpirl

[MichaelFilo]

[quote name='damu' date='Apr 25 2005, 10:05 AM'] [b][color=red]Rule #5. Thou shall not kill[/color].[/b] [/quote]
If you do not mind, when posting such statements, clarify your position. Because of the channel through which a forum works (text online) the message isn't so easily conveyed in one line. Please explain. I cannot tell whether yous upport other means of punishment, or you are opposed to hurting criminals, therefore letting the guilty go loose to hound the people. Please explain.

God bless,
Mikey

[Q the Ninja]

[quote name='Aloysius' date='Apr 26 2005, 07:22 PM'] anyway, I'm basically thinking pedophile-murderer (as in these people that kidnap children, rape them, and kill them)=automatic execution so long as it is proven (these cases tend to have very very clear evidence where if they are guilty it can usually be proven way beyond reasonable doubt) [/quote]
I do not think this follows. You don't always need to kill murderers, ergo you shouldn't always kill pedophiles.

I'm not saying it shouldn't be used, but I don't think you can't say it should always be used. It is a grave act to kill someone, no matter what it is. There is at least a material evil in the act, really. You cannot will this, nor can you be seeking this. That's easy enough.

However, you have to limit the evil done. If there's no danger to keep them in jail forever, it is better (ergo illicit to kill them). You must minimize the evil, otherwise there is an evil done. If they're a danger, then that's proper time to invoke the death penalty.

[Q the Ninja]

[quote name='damu' date='Apr 25 2005, 08:05 AM'] [b][color=red]Rule #5. Thou shall not kill[/color].[/b] [/quote]
I want to clarify the Catholic position on this. If this meant no killing as we know it, then war would be immoral (and indeed oftentimes it is). But yet, God allowed, and even commanded, the Israelites to war. God cannot contradict himself, so this means that our interpretation is probably wrong.

However, killing is a grave act, and must be done with care; no malice, no intent of the death of the person can be willed. Otherwise it's an evil act.

That last part is the same principle that changes allowing someone to die (as the Pope) and willing the person to die (like Terry Schiavo).

[Jesus Freak]

No, i do not believe that they should be treated with the death penalty. If we have them killed, then we are not better than them. We are supposed to have mercy. Just throw them in jail. Besides, considering that they are going around raping and killing people i do not think they want to reconcile with God. They have already turned their backs on God.


think about it?

Freak

[MichaelFilo]

God never turns His back on anyone, however. God always calls his children, and people change, even unto the point of death (the Good thief).

For the translation of kill, it is more properly rendered murder, but that would cause more confusion than kill. The killing is unlawful here, but certain powers have the authority to command the death of someone, but they can also abuse tha tpower and therefore make it unlawful (in the Eyes of God).

God gave this power to governments, when he proclaimed that the power to kill him and to let him live were given from God. God also had rules in which killing a member of the early Jewish communities was lawful and to be carried out. These conditions were plentiful. Sometimes, there is more mercy in killing someone then allowing them to commit more actions that would beaver dam them. Besides, as before mentioned, a visible end to your life will cause much thinking.

God bless,
Mikey

[Q the Ninja]

[quote name='MichaelFilo' date='Apr 27 2005, 03:56 PM']For the translation of kill, it is more properly rendered murder, but that would cause more confusion than kill. The killing is unlawful here, but certain powers have the authority to command the death of someone, but they can also abuse tha tpower and therefore make it unlawful (in the Eyes of God).[/quote]

That I can agree with, but I like kill because it is a warning how grave killing is.

Also, murder is intentionally killing someone who has the right to live (if I remember correctly).

Edited April 27, 2005 by Q the Ninja

[MichaelFilo]

Kill is probably more approrpriate. But the verb that means kill in Greek (like Latin) has a different meaning (there are many words that mean kill) than just kill. That is why I find kill to not be enough of a translation, I guess?

God bless,
Mikey

[Q the Ninja]

I believe we agree.

[MichaelFilo]

I believe we do.

By the way, Jesus Freak, we are better than no one. All humans are not better than any other human, or at least they didn't consider themselves thus. The Virgin Mary, kept without sin, would be sinning if she were to fall into the sin of pride by saying she is better, for she is only better because of God, and thus is not truely better because of Herself. The point, we arne't better than the criminals if we let them live or kill them.

God bless,
Mikey

[Jesus Freak]

How is Mary sinless? I don't understand this one... She was only sinless in the fact that she was a virgin when she had Jesus...or so I( & Protestants in general i believe) believe. There was only one person to ever walk the face of the earth as perfect/sinless and that was Jesus.


Now i'm ready for the Catholics to criticize me on this...

Freak

[MichaelFilo]

While one of the best Marian apologists isn't here (Laudate_Dominus?) I'll give it my best shot. However, not in this thread, it doesn't belong here. I'll quote you and post a reply in another thread. We can continue there.

God bless,
Mikey

[guardsman]

Personally, I'm surprised to hear so many votes in favor of the death penalty for pedophiles on a Catholic Phorum, but hey, this is the U.S. It's a tough discussion, I know, but I think it's pretty clear what the Church teaches as far as the death penalty goes, and as heinous a crime as pedophilia is, I seriously doubt the Roman Catholic Church would support killing a pedophile. I'm also surprised to hear all the talk about castration, as if you guys haven't noticed that many of the high profile cases about pedophilia recently have involved female school teachers and young boys. Now, if the criminal is a woman, are we as quick to say "kill her"? I seriously doubt it. And what body part should we cut off of the female child molesters? Best to go with Church teaching here, as it is Universal and applies equally to everyone. Lock them up and throw away the key, and provide plenty of Scripture so they can work out their salvation.

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='hot stuff' date='Apr 22 2005, 08:47 AM']
Including the 15 year old that has an abortion?

Life imprisonment is (in my opinion) appropriate for pedophiles. Although I think in some rare cases, castration is effective as well. [/quote]
Yes includingthe 15 year old who has an abortion.

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='Matt Black' date='Apr 25 2005, 06:10 AM'] The problem with making any crime other than murder (eg: rape, paedophilia) a capital crime is that it removes any disincentive on the part of the offender to spare the life of his victim ie:" if I'm going to fry for rape, I might as well go all the way and kill her too, as I've nothing to lose and in fact that might make my crime more difficult to detect". That's a major problem.

Anther problem that springs to mind is the definition of a paedophile. In the UK (where I am), technically a 16 year old who has sex with his 15-year old girlfriend is guilty of a paedophilic crime and has to go on the Sex Offenders' Register if convicted. Obviously there is a world of difference between such an individual and a fifty-something pervert who 'grooms' his 10-year old victims on a serial basis. The law would need to very carefully distinguish between such scenarios.

Yours in Christ

Matt [/quote]
Historicly this was not the case, many rapes occured in places where that was a capital crime which where not Rape murders, as a matter of fact I have never seen any evedince that this had any impact at all. Murder is a completly differant thing from rape and most rapist would not choose to kill their victim just because it is more convienent.


Now as for th Age thing I completly agree with you.

[Carrie]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='Apr 27 2005, 06:06 PM'] Cardinal Dulles disagrees with you.
He said knowing the date of your death can wonderfully focus your mind on the last things. [/quote]
I can appreciate what he is saying here, but I don't agree with us being the ones to hand out that person's date of death.

*shrug* But then again, I am one of those people who is against capital punishment in all cases. I think there are treatments out there that can help and that people can change. Must be the psychologist in me.

[cmotherofpirl]

Must be.

I think if you deliberately takes the life of an innocent, you forfeit your own.

I do not think think pedophiles should be executed.

[MichaelFilo]

I always hope for their forgiveness.

I still am skeptical about light punishments for such sexual crimes as pedophilia, edophilia, rape, and sodomy. Of course, the latter isn't technically a sexual crime in all places, it is outlawed in some.

Capital punishment is also an extreme. I don't think life in prison really helps, but there should be more fitting punishments. Doing "time" is simply not effective in curing any sexual perversions and is far from reformative as it is destructive to the person. So I am not sure. Execution is extreme, but doing "time" doesn't do much, and life in prison is still not reformative. I guess I'd be for execution since there are no other, more reformative treatments (execution is reformative, since it causes alot of thinking abolut the Last Things) at this time.

God bless,
Mikey