Execute Them!

[Winchester]

And serial killers are worse than pedophiles in what way?

[Don John of Austria]

As despicable as he is the pedophile has not forfieted his right to life, he has not violated anothers life and thereby taken all of that persons rights from them, thus the principal of forfieture does not apply. However the suffering wrought by pedophiles is tremendous and execution of them in order to protect society from them is certianly within the moral order.

Edited May 4, 2005 by Don John of Austria

[Winchester]

And serial killers are worse than pedophiles in what way?

[Q the Ninja]

We can't say...no way to tell their culpability.

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='Winchester' date='May 4 2005, 04:51 PM'] And serial killers are worse than pedophiles in what way? [/quote]
Murder is objectivly more evil than raping.

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='Don John of Austria' date='May 4 2005, 04:57 PM'] Murder is objectivly more evil than raping. [/quote]
That said, both are evil enough to warrant execution.

[Carnanc]

[quote name='Don John of Austria' date='May 3 2005, 06:55 PM'] Capital pusishment is nothing of the kind, it is simply the State defending it's own. [/quote]
The State in this country has the means to protect society from people who may be dangerous without having to resort to the death penalty. This is accompished with life in prison. This punishment is not more expensive than executing someone, and protects society at the same time. The Death Penalty is used without prudence. because life in prison works, it is not, or very rarely necessary.

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='slywakka250' date='May 4 2005, 06:00 PM'] The State in this country has the means to protect society from people who may be dangerous without having to resort to the death penalty. This is accompished with life in prison. This punishment is not more expensive than executing someone, and protects society at the same time. The Death Penalty is used without prudence. because life in prison works, it is not, or very rarely necessary. [/quote]
Actually it is much more expensive, it is our cumbersome legal system that artifically enflates the cost of execution. However, that is irrelevent, is it ever just to execute someone, yes, if it is just then it is morally permissable, and it is perfectly okay to to do it.

[Carnanc]

It is a just punishment, but there is the chance of making a complete mistakes and condemning to death the innocent. I am uncomfortable giving to the governement the power of life and death when it is not neccessarry for the safety of society. Just because it is morally permissable does that mean it should be generally used as punishment to serious crimes? It is true that the threat of Capital Punishment may cause some to move toward repentence, but this ignores the fact that God can work in many ways to bring this about, and it also completly eliminates any chance that the person might be able to develep a new way of life.

[Don John of Austria]

What about the dead persons chance to repent? How many are in Hell because they didn't repent before someone murdered them? Further what chance do they have to develop a new way of life in prison. Life in prison is far more inhumane that execution.

[popestpiusx]

Off with their heads!

[Q the Ninja]

I have yet to see a reasonable and logical argument for the death penalty in this case.

Edited May 5, 2005 by Q the Ninja

[Q the Ninja]

Also, don't we owe an ascent of mind and will (as the Second Vatican Council put it) to the teaching that it shouldn't be used very often, and especially not if the person can be contained?

I think pedophiles can be reasonably contained, whether we like the idea or not.

Edited May 5, 2005 by Q the Ninja

[Winchester]

One needn't know culpability to judge the degree of offence. Not one person. Not ONE, has mentioned eternal punishment being meted out. We are discussing temporal punishment alone. Are the crimes of a pedophile of lesser degree than that of a serial killer, such that a serial killer may warrant death when a pedophile may not.

As for containment, most criminals can be contained in a supermax, but such facilities are incredibly expensive, sometimes dangerous to the workers. The expense of surely containing a criminal must come into play, since draining the resources of a country has a negative effect on its citizens. If some vital government program must be cut, or already onerous taxes must be raised, then in the interest of protecting citizens, execution may well be neccessary. Don't tell me execution is more expensive than imprisonment; I know in most cases it is. We are assuming a modicum of sanity.

[Winchester]

I must add: The death penalty should have not a whit to do with culpability. It has to do with threat level and the severity of the crime. Thus, the execution of the mentally deficient or of "minors" (our concept being, in my mind, dreadfully skewed) is a moot point to me. No one is less dead because his killer could not spell his own name or was too young to buy beer.

[Q the Ninja]

Winchester, since I made the only two references to culpability in the entire thread, I think I should be the one to respond, because I think you misunderstood both.

[quote] You really cannot, but the people who push such cases (for wrong reasons) are very culpable for a great malum.[/quote]

This is just talking about those who punish for the wrong reasons, who will be culpable. It really has nothing to do with the person punished, but everything to do with the punisher. If someone kills a family member of mine and I want them dead out of revenge (or "justice") you better believe that I will have a lot to answer for. Catholic Moral Theology, as I think you know, says that we can never directly (I don't think indirectly is allowed either) will the death of a person. Please, take this last statement of mine in context, because if you are wanting the health of society, you aren't really willing the death of the person.

[quote]We can't say...no way to tell their culpability.[/quote]

This has nothing to do with the death penalty, just a response to, "And serial killers are worse than pedophiles in what way?" which I took as referring to the person being worse, and not the action. I thought, but I probably misunderstood, that you were saying that because he's a pedophile he's worse than she, who is a serial killer, no matter what.

Anyways, the culpability of the death penalty never comes into play, unless it's the culpability of person or people responsiblity for enacting that penalty. Just as a person in war who shoots someone else for the wrong reason, capital punishment can be used wrongly and unjustly.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Q the Ninja' date='May 5 2005, 08:25 AM']



This is just talking about those who punish for the wrong reasons, who will be culpable. It really has nothing to do with the person punished, but everything to do with the punisher. If someone kills a family member of mine and I want them dead out of revenge (or "justice") you better believe that I will have a lot to answer for. Catholic Moral Theology, as I think you know, says that we can never directly (I don't think indirectly is allowed either) will the death of a person.



[/quote]
One does not commit a sin by wanting the death penalty for a convicted murderer. Its called justice. They have deliberately taken the life of an innocent person, and have forfeited there own.

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='May 5 2005, 09:27 AM'] One does not commit a sin by wanting the death penalty for a convicted murderer. Its called justice. They have deliberately taken the life of an innocent person, and have forfeited there own. [/quote]
It is an important distinction, one can desire justice for the man who has forfieted his own right to life, one candesire that justice be metted out swiftly, but one cannot activly desire that the other person be killed, only that he recieve just punishment, which may or may not be death. It is a fine distinction but an important one.

[popestpiusx]

Off with their heads!!

[Timothy]

WHOOPS wrong thread

Edited May 5, 2005 by Timothy