Guest JeffCR07 Posted July 13, 2005 Share Posted July 13, 2005 True, Semperviva, I apologize if I have misread your posts Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted July 13, 2005 Share Posted July 13, 2005 [quote name='p0lar_bear' date='Jul 13 2005, 10:46 AM']That doesn't change the fact that many medievals personified God as feminine. Hildegard repeatedly spoke of the divine expressly and purposefully personified as feminine. Julian of Norwich did the same, as did many other medievals. btw, when I say "medievals" I'm not necessarily talking about scholastics. [right][snapback]642062[/snapback][/right] [/quote] The medieval West, but I'm not a Westerner. Just as I don't recite the [i]filioque[/i] in the creed, I don't accept the speculations of the medieval Western theologians. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
p0lar_bear Posted July 13, 2005 Share Posted July 13, 2005 [quote name='Apotheoun' date='Jul 13 2005, 02:48 PM']The medieval West, but I'm not a Westerner. Just as I don't recite the [i]filioque[/i] in the creed, I don't accept the speculations of the medieval Western theologians. [right][snapback]642067[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Again, that doesn't mean that I can't or that they are contrary to truth. It means that [i]you[/i] don't agree with them. That's fine. Until something they said becomes part of defined Tradition, you are free to disagree. However, you cannot claim that anyone who disagrees with you is endangering the Faith or distorting the Truth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted July 13, 2005 Share Posted July 13, 2005 Semperviva, I found the whole "data" element of our discussion to be rather pointless, because I was only using the term in order to indicate that public revelation had ceased, and that there will be no new things added to the deposit of faith. Besides, where do you think I learned to use that word? You guessed it, from Cardinal Ratzinger. Of course the word can be misused, but it is possible to misuse any word. God bless, Todd Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Semperviva Posted July 13, 2005 Share Posted July 13, 2005 [quote name='JeffCR07' date='Jul 13 2005, 12:43 PM']No, you must not. All I must acknowledge, as a Scholastic, is that feminimity mirrors a [i]power[/i] of God, [i]not some aspect of His immutable substance or His unknowable essence.[/i] [right][snapback]642056[/snapback][/right] [/quote] ...as does masculinity... i am not saying his immutable substance is feminine...i am not saying I know more about God's essence then anyone else..... just in considering God.......you must include both....JUST as if i exclude FATHER from my unedrstanfding of GOD i have a warped concept of God NO we can never say God i[i]s[/i] mother..this give you pantheistic implications.... even if its just the simple understnading that male and female are both in the image of God...hence there is something feminine about God......not his immutable substance or essence, of course not! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted July 13, 2005 Share Posted July 13, 2005 [quote name='p0lar_bear' date='Jul 13 2005, 10:54 AM']Again, that doesn't mean that I can't or that they are contrary to truth. It means that [i]you[/i] don't agree with them. That's fine. Until something they said becomes part of defined Tradition, you are free to disagree. However, you cannot claim that anyone who disagrees with you is endangering the Faith or distorting the Truth. [right][snapback]642075[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Certainly you can do what you would like, but I only see this kind of speculation as theologically divisive, and that isn't really something that the West needs more of at the present time. It reminds me of the West adding the [i]filioque[/i], the more that the West diverges from the unified tradition of the first millennium, the greater the length of the schism between East and West will be. Moreover, if the speculations distort the theology of the Trinity, then certainly I, and anyone else who wants to, can speak about it endangering the faith of the Church and distorting the Truth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JeffCR07 Posted July 13, 2005 Share Posted July 13, 2005 [quote name='p0lar_bear' date='Jul 13 2005, 12:46 PM']That doesn't change the fact that many medievals personified God as feminine. Hildegard repeatedly spoke of the divine expressly and purposefully personified as feminine. Julian of Norwich did the same, as did many other medievals. btw, when I say "medievals" I'm not necessarily talking about scholastics. [right][snapback]642062[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Both Hildegard and Julian of Norwich were mystics, not theologians, and their writings can easily be understood as discussions of how the feminine mirrors a divine power of God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
p0lar_bear Posted July 13, 2005 Share Posted July 13, 2005 [quote name='Apotheoun' date='Jul 13 2005, 02:59 PM']Certainly you can do what you would like, but I only see this kind of speculation as theologically divisive, and that isn't really something that the West needs more of at the present time. It reminds me of the West adding the [i]filioque[/i], the more that the West diverges from the unified tradition of the first millennium, the greater the length of the schism between East and West will be. Moreover, if the speculations distort the theology of the Trinity, then certainly I, and anyone else who wants to, can speak about it endangering the faith of the Church and distorting the Truth. [right][snapback]642081[/snapback][/right] [/quote] The West doing something different from the East isn't bad, it's just different. I don't discount your traditions, don't discount mine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Semperviva Posted July 13, 2005 Share Posted July 13, 2005 [quote name='Apotheoun' date='Jul 13 2005, 12:34 PM'] Wow, you are impressive. To be able to sense my attitudes and the nuances of my theological position from a written text, clearly you must participate in God's omniscience. [right][snapback]642040[/snapback][/right] [/quoteI Lol, You know you did that same thing a while back.... I''m really sorry...that sarcastic thing was very uncharitable of me....please forgive me.... i misunderstood you to be condescending.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted July 13, 2005 Share Posted July 13, 2005 [quote name='p0lar_bear' date='Jul 13 2005, 11:01 AM']The West doing something different from the East isn't bad, it's just different. I don't discount your traditions, don't discount mine. [right][snapback]642087[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Not in an of itself, but if it distorts the faith, then problems arise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Semperviva Posted July 13, 2005 Share Posted July 13, 2005 [quote name='Apotheoun' date='Jul 13 2005, 12:55 PM']Semperviva, I found the whole "data" element of our discussion to be rather pointless, because I was only using the term in order to indicate that public revelation had ceased, and that there will be no new things added to the deposit of faith. Besides, where do you think I learned to use that word? You guessed it, from Cardinal Ratzinger. Of course the word can be misused, but it is possible to misuse any word. God bless, Todd [right][snapback]642077[/snapback][/right] [/quote] oh todd, i am sorry, i only meant well for you, you see i only was afraid that you were going to be too focused on defining God and not knowing HIm, do you see? i was only afraid of that...so thats all I meant...you're a good guy..go Palamas! LOL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
p0lar_bear Posted July 13, 2005 Share Posted July 13, 2005 [quote name='Apotheoun' date='Jul 13 2005, 03:03 PM']Not in an of itself, but if it distorts the faith, then problems arise. [right][snapback]642090[/snapback][/right] [/quote] But the East isn't necessarily the measure of what distorts the Faith. The Magisterium gets to decide that, not you. The Magisterium has declared hundreds of these people invovled in the speculation you so resent to be saints, not heretics or distorters of the Faith. Eastern theology is valid and important and valuable, but it is no more pure than Western, it is not a measure any more than Western theology is. I know it is common for Western Christians to neglect or discount Eastern thought, but the reverse is just as dangerous and just as irresponsible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JeffCR07 Posted July 13, 2005 Share Posted July 13, 2005 [quote name='Semperviva' date='Jul 13 2005, 12:56 PM']...as does masculinity... i am not saying his immutable substance is feminine...i am not saying I know more about God's essence then anyone else..... just in considering God.......you must include both....JUST as if i exclude FATHER from my unedrstanfding of GOD i have a warped concept of God NO we can never say God i[i]s[/i] mother..this give you pantheistic implications.... even if its just the simple understnading that male and female are both in the image of God...hence there is something feminine about God......not his immutable substance or essence, of course not! [right][snapback]642079[/snapback][/right] [/quote] You have yet to reply to the main point of my previous post. Namely, the fact that the apophatic nature of divine language necessitates that we always use the terms which are [i]most[/i] fitting, and always avoid terms which are not the most fitting. Thus, we can never refer to God as feminine, but rather, we can only say that feminimity images a power of God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted July 13, 2005 Share Posted July 13, 2005 Lets say that a Westerner developed a Trinitarian theology that held that one of the hypostatic properties of the Son was that He was feminine (in relation to the other two hypostases), and consequently, that He/She was also the divine Mother. Now because of the Western doctrine of the [i]filioque[/i] one could argue that the Father and the Mother (Son) procreate the Spirit, and that the Spirit proceeds forth from them as the child of the Heavenly Father and Mother. Clearly this notion would be problematic. The idea of introducing the feminine into the revealed language used to speak about the three hypostases of the Trinity would ultimately corrupt the faith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted July 13, 2005 Share Posted July 13, 2005 [quote name='p0lar_bear' date='Jul 13 2005, 11:07 AM']But the East isn't necessarily the measure of what distorts the Faith. The Magisterium gets to decide that, not you. The Magisterium has declared hundreds of these people invovled in the speculation you so resent to be saints, not heretics or distorters of the Faith. Eastern theology is valid and important and valuable, but it is no more pure than Western, it is not a measure any more than Western theology is. I know it is common for Western Christians to neglect or discount Eastern thought, but the reverse is just as dangerous and just as irresponsible. [right][snapback]642097[/snapback][/right] [/quote] I'm not saying that the East does, but if we follow your path, I can tell you this, the Eastern Orthodox will never be in communion with the Pope. One other note, as I'm sure you are already aware, the Magisterium does not "create" the tradition. Instead, it is the guardian of tradition, therefore it must pass on what has been revealed, and not play with it until it fits the modern sensibilities of Western secular culture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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