Masculinity of God

[Guest JeffCR07]

lol, this is my chance to look stupid:

Hey Todd, whats analogia entis?

[Guest JeffCR07]

[quote name='Semperviva' date='Jun 27 2005, 02:13 PM']I love the Eastern rite, esp. Melikite and Greek Orthodox, but I study in the Western tradition.
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um, unless I'm drastically, drastically mistaken, Greek Orthodox isn't a Rite of the Catholic Church

[Semperviva]

hahaha, i meant melkite rite, and greek orthodoxtradition, oops-plus it will be soon

Edited June 27, 2005 by Semperviva

[Guest JeffCR07]

boy do I hope so. I've already told a whole bunch of my friends that if I'm alive on the day that the Catholic and Greek Orthodox Churches reunite, I'm just gonna drop everything, go find a random Greek Orthodox person and hug them.

[Semperviva]

...actually, I was talking with some Greek Orthodox about this. They conceeded that it would definetely happen, and they recognize that they need the final authority of the Pope, however they persist in some obnoxious Palamite ideas about the Trinity, sorry Todd , quoting him on the procession of the son, despite the fact that the patriarchs are in union with Rome on the matter. Quite frustrating.

Edited June 27, 2005 by Semperviva

[Apotheoun]

I'm a pesky Palamite in full communion with the See of Rome, and hopefully the fact that Eastern Catholics are reasserting their Byzantine heritage both in theology and liturgy will help to show the Orthodox that they too can be in communion with Rome and not lose those things that make them unique.

It is important to note that the Eastern Catholic Churches, like the Orthodox Churches, do not use the "filioque" in the creed, and Rome has no problem at all with this fact.

Now, speaking personally, as a Palamite, I have no problem accepting the "filioque" at the level of divine energy, but what I don't accept is the idea that the Holy Spirit receives His hypostatic existence from the Son. The Father alone is the font of Godhead, and so generation and procession are hypostatic properties of the Father, which cannot be shared with the Son or the Spirit.

Interestingly, in the mid 1990s the Vatican issued a clarification on the "filioque" that dealt, at least in part, with this very issue, and although the clarification is not perfect, it was a step in the right direction, because it clearly was an attempt by the Apostolic See to reassure the Eastern Orthodox that the Catholic Church accepts the monarchy of the Father just as they do.

It was a nice first step toward reconciling Eastern and Western triadology.

[Guest JeffCR07]

hahaha, my Anselm would eat your Palamas

[Guest JeffCR07]

but in all seriousness, I think much of the difficulty in that subject is in the differing theological emphases of the East and the West, which lead to terminological differences and nuances that, while real, cause unnecessary misunderstandings.

[Snowcatpa]

[color=purple] Sidenote for Semperviva et al:

I found another good site for Catholic women!!! "Women of the Third Millennium" [url="http://www.wttm.org/index.html"]http://www.wttm.org/index.html[/url]

I get SO excited when I find these.... and one of the co-founders, Katrina Zeno, specifically addresses the topics we are talking about now in whole variety of lectures and stuff you can find on the website. I do'nt know about the rest of you all... but I definitely need all the explanations and different ways of understanding men and women and the Church as I can get. It's so complex yet so simple! Ahhh... it boggles my mind... [/color]

[Semperviva]

i just like this idea....

2 orders of feminism

the [i]NO[/i] of EVE, who says [i]non serviam[/i]
or, the [i]YES[/i] of the NEW EVE, [i]fiat[/i]

(go west young.... woman! )

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Snowcatpa' date='Jun 27 2005, 01:27 AM'][color=purple]
I look at my brother and think, he’s more reflective of God than I am…than I’ll ever be… granted…. I’m an insignificant nothing. I know it and I accept it and pray for God’s grace and love… but what makes him so great that he is more reflective of God’s nature than I could ever hope to be? I know that sounds absolutely terrible…but …I want to be honest...I thought it. I get to be completely fulfilled in who I am as a woman….a wonderful amazing thing…but men are God’s role? And I’m not? I'll never be Godly and men get to be... all because God's role is masculine and I'm a girl? God relates to us in maternal ways too... those I can relate too...but they're seemingly not Godly enough because God's role towards us is a Masculine one, never referred to as feminine. I guess I’m just the more passive, submissive one….ok….I must learn to humble myself and be that, and in doing so fulfill my vocation….but… always? And why?

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This is the part I can't understand. You and your brother both have souls of equal dignity before God. His gender is different, his role may be different, but he is not more loved by God than you are. He is not more God-like than you are. Leadership is really a role of service, which is why the Holy Fathers title is Servant of the Servants of God. God is so other that our conception of masculine and feminine have little meaning in comparison. Have you ever seen a woman defending a child from harm? what is passive or submissive about that??

[KnightofChrist]

"I don't think the Church degrades women, persay, they do heap loads of honor on Mary and I respect the differentiation of roles, but my concern is more with valuation of the roles I suppose. Yes the Church totally respects women and Mary above and beyond what society does, to the core of who they are, it's just...

Basically, God was a Man, referred to in masculine words, incarnate as man...Man = God, Woman... woman helper of man... still a noble thing! but helper of man... lower than man..., Woman is not God, only Man is God. You know, that superficial thing. I mean... it looks really judgemental, unequal is expected because we're people and God's God, but it's like, saying God is like one and not like the other kinda gives off a bad vibe to the other, you know? Telling someone that the Church is still totally above and beyond terminology and respects and reveres all people is a great explanation but I still feel it could be more convincing, like there's something missing from the explanation that I haven't heard or understood yet.

There are plenty of women who don't find the teachings degrading, and I don't most of the time... it's just I see how they can be taken that way and I don't know how to defend against that. I'm not upset that I can't be a priest, and it's so wonderful that Mary was more revered than the apostles, but how does that help in the argument that God is still a Man... and a woman is... well... man's helper, man's supporter (noble things, but seemingly not "Godly" for God is not a Woman, he's a Man)?

haha, I'm not a radical feminist, believe me, I'm all about the dignity of men and women in their different roles serving God and for their different gifts, but there are just a lot of holes I need filled in...and this is a big one."

Snowcatpa, the "Roles" of men and women in The Catholic Church is that we are both equals under God. Woman is yes a "helper of man" however Man is a "helper" of woman as well! Think of it this way... When God took Adams side to make Eve there was a reason for it ... think about it if God took a from Adams brian, man would be smarter than woman. If God took from Adams foot man could walk all over woman... But no God did none of these He took from Adams side, making man and woman equal!!!! EQUAL!!! Not one above or below the other!!!!

And I've always thought this way... both man and woman up and untill Christ and Mary where sinners and unclean in the eyes of God... My goodness it took God, thats right God to become man for a man to be sinless, but all it took was Marys faith for a woman to be sinless! You woman got it made, we men are so stupid it to God, Christ Jesus to get us right!!!

Snowcatpa, maybe the reason you do not understand or "need more convincing" is because you are leting jealousy, doubt and pride blind you. Jealousy because you sound jealous that God calls himself "He" and not She. Doubt because you dont seemed to wanna believe what God says He is, and pride because you believe woman are just servants to men and you think your better than that... What God says goes (But I dont think Gods says that women are lower than men, so dont worry abut that, still its pridefull cuz you seem to believe your better than what you thought God wanted you to be)... All of which is sinfull, what is missing is faith.

Faith that God says who God is. Christ said to call God, The Head of the Trinity, God "THE FATHER" sorry not Mother but that does NOT change the fact that man and woman are equal under God. God became man, Jesus Christ the Son of God, not daughter. So if you do not believe that God says who God is then you will always have doubts and "need more convincing". Believe what God believes... and fill the "holes" with FAITH!!!

Remember when Moses asked God "who are you?" God replyed "I Am Who Am" . Do as Moses and believe have faith, he did not conitue to question or need more convincing you should not ethier... and remember God is better than any man or woman He is GOD! And He wishes in His three Divine Persons in One God to be Call Father, Son and Holy Spirit. And MAN AND WOMAN ARE EQUAL UNDER GOD!!!

[Snowcatpa]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='Jul 10 2005, 10:36 AM']His gender is different, his role may be different, but he is not more loved by God than you are. He is not more God-like than you are. Leadership is really a role of service, which is why the Holy Fathers title is Servant of the Servants of God. [right][snapback]638307[/snapback][/right]
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Hehe… You are completely right motherofpirl! Much more wise than I was trying to figure all this out. I've think I've discovered that my confusion, and interest, however, is more related to the effects that it has in contemporary culture, when people don’t understand the underlying basis of mutual self-sacrifice and service. I'll explain below

[quote name='KnightofChrist' date='Jul 12 2005, 03:55 AM']Snowcatpa,  maybe the reason you do not understand or "need more convincing" is because you are leting jealousy, doubt and pride blind you.  Jealousy because you sound jealous that God calls himself "He" and not She.  Doubt because you dont seemed to wanna believe what God says He is, and pride because you believe woman are just servants to men and you think your better than that... What God says goes (But I dont think Gods says that women are lower than men, so dont worry abut that, still its pridefull cuz you seem to believe your better than what you thought God wanted you to be)...  All of which is sinfull, what is missing is faith.  [right][snapback]640566[/snapback][/right]
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I really appreciate you taking to time to respond to my confusions, Knight, but I think you might have misinterpreted what I believe. I am not jealous that God calls himself He… I fully accept that God is a He and through prayer and learning, and coming to find more and more joy and understanding in that truth. Doubt is indeed a vice which we all, myself included, fall into… but never out of lack of desire to want to believe what God says He is. I pray every day to let the Holy Spirit guide my heart and mind to fill me with acceptence, reverance, and hopefully understanding of his Truths. More than anything, I do not doubt the truths of the Church, while I may not understand them. I don’t believe that I am better than what God wants me to be because who God wants me to be is so much better than I am now! lol I don’t believe women are just servants to men and that I’m better than that… I am sorry… I feel like I must have done a terrible job trying to explain my feelings on this issue if you gained from my writings such thoughts that are in sincerity the farthest from the truth I have full faith that the Church is right… what I pray for is the Holy Spirit to open my eyes to the beauty of these truths… and hopefully understanding them as well. Does that make sense?

[quote name='KnightofChrist' date='Jul 12 2005, 03:55 AM']Faith that God says who God is.  Christ said to call God, The Head of the Trinity, God "THE FATHER" sorry not Mother but that does NOT change the fact that man and woman are equal under God.  God became man, Jesus Christ the Son of God, not daughter.  So if you do not believe that God says who God is then you will always have doubts and "need more convincing".  Believe what God believes... and fill the "holes" with FAITH!!![right][snapback]640566[/snapback][/right]
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Again, I feel you misunderstand me (probably through my own inadequacies in explaining my views). After discussion on this forum and further reading, I really do now understand AND believe (I believed the Church was right on this issue before I started replying to this thread) in the masculinity of God… and I’m beginning to see the beauty and mystery that only breaks the surface with that realization! My doubts, Knight, are not about whether or not God is who God says he is and they never were. I have faith in God and the Truths he has revealed to us… but the holes I refer to have more to do with the earthly realm. How to respond to feminist arguments to the contrary, for instance… or why/ how men and women have abused the gifts of their special vocations to lead the world in sin.

The practical implications that I refer to have to do with my interest in, for instance, how men abuse their power as leaders and protectors, to, like the original sin on Adam’s part, “lord it over” women, and how women abuse this as well in their sins that has now led to idolatry, and self-deification, the myth of matriarchy and the rise of Feminism. The implications of God being the Father, relating to original sin, how Adams of today use that to abuse and degrade women at the expense of this right to lead. I hope you see how this does not mean I am attacking what the Church says God is… I inquired about why it was this way… and I received many wonderful answers for which I am grateful that, in conjunction with prayer and individual study, have helped me to understand this issue.

Men and Women ARE equal. I do not deny that or misunderstand that! I love that! That is Beautiful and wonderful!

I suppose I feel just a bit more hurt, however, that you don’t think I would need more convincing and understanding about finer points of doctrine…. Just as many other people are on many other issues. You write:

[quote name='KnightofChrist' date='Jul 12 2005, 03:55 AM']Remember when Moses asked God "who are you?"  God replyed "I Am Who Am" .  Do as Moses and believe have faith, he did not conitue to question or need more convincing you should not ethier...  [right][snapback]640566[/snapback][/right]
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We are on a continual quest to embrace God’s love and mystery, and understanding plays a part in that – I needed to understand why the Church says what it says, just like I needed to understand why the Eucharist is so special, and why we need the sacraments. Explanation and Explication are vital to a Catholic’s understanding of the faith, just as Faith itself is.

In particular with this issue, you saying that I should just accept it, no questions asked, from a female perspective, brings up, to me, negative images of men telling women in the past to just “accept your place” without understanding why… when perhaps… that wasn’t their only place. For example, "Stay in the kitchen because you’re supposed to be"… instead of saying, "Learn and love your maternal vocation… and if God is so calling you, live out your maternal vocation as a spiritual mother in many different areas of life, like politics or the work force." Telling me that I shouldn’t need more convincing on who God says He is, putting down my desire to understand instead of encouraging me to dwell in the mystery of it all in light of learning what the Church teaches, has not been an effective technique for leading me to grow in Christ’s love, even though I whole-heartedly appreciate what I know were the best of your intentions.

God is masculine. But, in a scholarly and spiritual way, this interests me: how have men abused that for their own gain? Lording it over us? How have women abused this? And how can we over come all of this? How is that "lording over" present in the Church? Is it? Was it ever? The past two Popes, Pope John Paul the Great and Pope Benedict XVI have made it a point to focus on this issue - of discovering what it means to be a man or a woman... and, JPII in particular, of encouraging women participation the church in the non-priestly/sacramental roles... where they can work complementarily with men to fulfill their calling to be spiritual mothers in all walks of life. I want to learn what is doctrine and the Truth and the Light and what is Feminism and what are remnants of aristotelian patriarchy, so that I can, with prayer and meditation, feel out a little more what God wants of me as a Woman of the Third Millenium. How I can do HIS will... not the will of feminists or patriarchs... but God's.

hehe... maybe one day I'll be able to explain myself well. Hope this cleared up at least some things. With love,[/color]

[p0lar_bear]

I'm probably going to get burned for this, but...


I think that there must be a proper way to talk about God in the feminine. Not that I advocate referring to God as "Our Mother," but all humanity, masculine and feminine, reflects the divine. If woman images the divine, then there must be something feminine in the divine.

This isn't an innovation or a new feminist theology, it is actually fully within Catholic tradition to speak of the feminine divine....It was common for medievals to speak of the motherhood of Christ. St. Hildegard of Bingen, Julian of Norwich, and St. Bernard of Clairvaux (among many others) all used images of the feminine divine. Sophia (wisdom) in the Wisdom literature was personified as feminine, yet always associated with Christ.

The problem is that after the Enlightenment, we lost our mythopoetic mindset, the ability to image things in the same way.

The prominent feminist writers and thinkers who want to have a masculine God and a feminine goddess, or destroy the masculine divine altogether are obviously off track, but ....

I think we lost something when we lost our ability to speak of the feminine divine. We can't write songs to Sapentia, Caritas, and Scientia Dei like Hildegard did. We can't use the same feminine images that Julian of Norwich did. We even have trouble speaking about the motherhood of Christ as Bernard of Clairvaux. I don't know how to get that dimension of Catholic spirituality back, but I think that it is important that we do.

My thoughts on this are not fully formed...though I posted something on Hildegard's use of the feminine divine in the Apologetics board a while back....

Since we aren't really able to speak of the feminine divine in regards to Christ anymore or in reference to the Father (which was done), there is developing a new trend of referring to the Holy Spirit as feminine. This is done not only by feminist theologians, but prominent theologians such as Scott Hahn (defended on this by Bishop Bruskewitz). This is actually new, in the past, the feminine had generally been associated with Christ (while not denying that He indeed was incarnated as a man).

I don't know how to properly speak of the feminine divine, but I think imaging God as exclusively masculine limits our understanding of Him.

Those who condemn any reference to the feminine divine need to seriously consider and address the medievals who made such prominent use of the feminine divine while staying fully within the Church.

[Apotheoun]

I think it's best to stick to what has been revealed, bearing in mind always the apophatic nature of theological language.