Masculinity of God

[Semperviva]

[quote name='Snowcatpa' date='Jun 24 2005, 04:57 PM'][color=purple]
That's a good point. I'll definitely try to do that. And you're right.. in the Eucharist, gender doesn't mean anything... but, from a perspective, it does mean something when it's translated into other aspects of our faith, which, while I respect, make that more evident. Like, obviously, to be in persona Christi for the Eucharist, the person must be a man. Which then means all the clergy are men and the controlling powers are men and the world thus functions on this underlying principal - that God is man and is not woman. In a personal relationship, you're right, we need to focus on the relationship between ourselves and God - He has done so much for us.

I am so grateful to receive the Eucharist, but as for what more do I want... I want to understand why if there is no gender in God, and he actsin both roles and is above and beyond gender, and came incarnate as a male, thereby cementing very very subtly but still fundamentally.. that God's a man... why we must call God a man and not a woman (which I have already had answered in this post)... and some other perspectives/suggestions/thoughts about what the implications of that are in our world.

Is there anyone else that's kind of jolted by this? Most of the responses I've got in this post have given me excellent ways to see and understand the masculinity of God, which I definitely appreciate, but, especially other  Catholics, doesn't the fact that God is a male and thus not a woman bother you or has it ever bothered you and you have another perspective that would help? 

As amy pointed out, it says in the Catechism:
"God's parental tenderness can also be expressed by the image of motherhood, which emphasizes God's immanence, the intimacy between Creator and creature...We ought therefore to recall that God transcends the human distinction between the sexes. He is neither man nor woman: he is God"

If he's neither and yet has features that are of both and above and beyond anything we could ever imagine... it just jarrs me that God is a Man and not a Woman, in any terminology and that tradition, even though I believe it is right, holds us to that. It doesn't matter on the surface, you're right... it's so much more important to focus on our relationship with God and all that he is given us. But in a very real world, that fundamental distinction has some pretty strong implications for women. 
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I think gender [i]does [/i]come into play in recieving the Eucharist...jesus is a man...we are recieveing jesus...the recieving action taking place is more in reflection of woman, and esp. of Mary...so it seems like gender matters alot in regards to the eucharist..

so does it bother u in the sense of

God is referenced as masculine to the exclusion of feminine
well-
he's not really...

male and female he created them...

Is a man and not a woman created in the image and likeness of GOd?
-no
both are in the image and likeness of GOd- but man is more directly....

[i guess the one thing that does bother me is
was woman a sidenote- like oh-adam's lonely- his dog ain't cutting it--guess i'll make him a better playmate--lol, jk, i mean the way its told seem to be woman was a second thought--but i know this is a wrong impression on my part..anyways..]

but back to the point---so God is like the [i]completion[/i] of the two
so thats why it doesn't bother me...

[Snowcatpa]

[quote name='Semperviva' date='Jun 24 2005, 07:12 PM']so does it bother u in the sense of

God is referenced as masculine to the exclusion of feminine
well-
he's not really...

male and female he created them...

but back to the point---so God is like the [i]completion[/i] of the two
so thats why it doesn't bother me...
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[color=purple]
Yeah, I think it kinda does. God [i]is[/i] referenced as masculine to the exclusion of the feminine, which I think is what Semalsia was thinking about with the first post on the thread. He may have created them male and female, but He is a male. (at least in our words)
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Edited June 24, 2005 by Snowcatpa

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='Snowcatpa' date='Jun 24 2005, 05:17 PM'][color=purple]
Yeah, I think it kinda does. God [i]is[/i] referenced as masculine to the exclusion of the feminine, which I think is what Semalsia was thinking about with the first post on the thread. He may have created them male and female, but He is a male. (at least in our words)
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So why does it bother you? What is it aboutthe Fact That God has told use to call Him a Him that bothers you?

[Semperviva]

ok -well does it help that Christ said

"like a mother hen I gather them"

again, like a mother hen--this is one feminine likeness of God,
so we say HE to clarify/emphasize God does more masculine things than feminine- for example

with the eucharist "this is my body given up for you" which is a masculine initiative, [i]initiative[/i] in the creative action, with[i] pursuit[/i] of the Church

being the "Word made flesh" although this may gross ppl out i kinda see the eucharist as[i] like [/i] "sperm" or life-generating aspect of God's "masculine attributes"

..............(please don't laugh at me-I thought of it in adoration)
anyways i hope i am not being heretical or anything

[philothea]

[quote name='Snowcatpa' date='Jun 24 2005, 04:57 PM'][color=purple]
That's a good point. I'll definitely try to do that. And you're right.. in the Eucharist, gender doesn't mean anything... but, from a perspective, it does mean something when it's translated into other aspects of our faith, which, while I respect, make that more evident. Like, obviously, to be in persona Christi for the Eucharist, the person must be a man. Which then means all the clergy are men and the controlling powers are men and the world thus functions on this underlying principal - that God is man and is not woman. In a personal relationship, you're right, we need to focus on the relationship between ourselves and God - He has done so much for us.

I am so grateful to receive the Eucharist, but as for what more do I want... I want to understand why if there is no gender in God, and he actsin both roles and is above and beyond gender, and came incarnate as a male, thereby cementing very very subtly but still fundamentally.. that God's a man... why we must call God a man and not a woman (which I have already had answered in this post)... and some other perspectives/suggestions/thoughts about what the implications of that are in our world.

Is there anyone else that's kind of jolted by this? Most of the responses I've got in this post have given me excellent ways to see and understand the masculinity of God, which I definitely appreciate, but, especially other  Catholics, doesn't the fact that God is a male and thus not a woman bother you or has it ever bothered you and you have another perspective that would help? 
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Well... sorry, but I'm afraid I will be completely unhelpful I'm totally cool with Jesus being male, and God being our Father, and thus the Church having a male priesthood. I [i]like[/i] it that way. I feel entirely comfortable adoring/worshipping/loving/trusting a God who revealed himself with certain masculine aspects. It seems fatherly, brotherly, and protecting. I would be weirded out by a female trying to take that role.

I don't know what to say. So... I'm female. I'm also a sinful, insignificant nothing, who can't even exist without God's constant mindfulness of me. [i]My[/i] gender doesn't seem to mean a thing in that relationship. God's "gender" (or aspects of one) mean that he's strong, loving, and protecting in a way that men are meant also to be.

Sorry, I'm rambling... I don't know what to say!

[Snowcatpa]

haha, well you made me smile though and your perspective does help.

Edited June 24, 2005 by Snowcatpa

[Semperviva]

Our embodiedness as male and female is not an accident of evolutionary biology, he insists. Rather, that embodiedness and the mutuality built into it express some of the deepest truths of the world, and teach us something about the world’s Creator. John Paul even goes so far as to propose that sexual love within the bond of marital fidelity is an icon of the interior life of God the Holy Trinity, a community of mutual self–donation and mutual receptivity.

...so male and female together give a completer image of the trinity...

[Semperviva]

[quote name='Semperviva' date='Jun 24 2005, 05:26 PM'], with[i] pursuit[/i] of the Church

being the "Word made flesh" although this may gross ppl out i kinda see the eucharist as[i] like [/i] "sperm" or life-generating aspect of God's "masculine attributes"

..............(please don't laugh at me-I thought of it in adoration)
anyways i hope i am not being heretical or anything
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at least you'll never forget that image, ha!

[Apotheoun]

God is primarily Father in connection with the eternal generation of His only-begotten Son, and this is a hypostatic reality and so it is an ontological truth. This reality occurs outside of time and so it is not dependent upon creation.

God is Father also, although not in the same way as indicated above, in connection with creation. But it should be noted that primarily God relates to the world as Creator, for it is not until the incarnation of the eternal Logos that man can truly relate to God as his own Father. All men become sons of God in the only-begotten Son of God.

God is also the Husband of His bride the Church. Thus the Church represents the feminine principle in relation to God. There is an ancient second century homily that speaks of this reality, for as its author says: "You surely cannot be ignorant of the fact that the living Church is the Body of Christ; for Scripture says: 'God made man, male and female.' Now the male signifies Christ, and the female signifies the Church, which, according to both the Old and New Testament, is no recent creation, but has existed from the beginning." [[i]Liturgy of the Hours: The Office of Readings[/i], Patristic Reading for Thursday of the 32nd week of Ordinary Time]

Finally, and to a lesser degree within the Church's tradition, the soul signifies the feminine principle in relation to God, who is her lover.

[Semperviva]

[quote name='Snowcatpa' date='Jun 24 2005, 05:30 PM']haha, well you made me smile though and your perspective does help.
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oh good- i risked being burned for you...

[Snowcatpa]

[quote name='Don John of Austria' date='Jun 24 2005, 07:22 PM']So why does it bother you? What is it aboutthe Fact That God has told use to call Him a Him that bothers you?
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Completely valid question. Basically for two reasons, that are kind of together:

1. (Although we all know men and women are equal in dignity and value and in their different, complementary roles) It kinda makes it seem like men are better then women because God is a man and woman isn't. Man is God and Woman is not.

[quote name='Snowcatpa' date='Jun 20 2005, 12:21 PM'][color=purple]
But there's one argument for this I've heard that attacks Christianity for fundamentally making women feel lower, less worthy... because, while Mary, a submissive, perfectly virginally maternal woman, is the Mother of God, and the Church, a female entity, is her bride, God himself and Jesus incarnate are both men? It kinda gives off the impression (superficially I know, but that's why I'm asking) that, you know, men are better than women...From the surface it seems like women are degraded on one hand and exalted on the other. The terminology used as a just another reflection of this.
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[quote name='Snowcatpa' date='Jun 20 2005, 06:52 PM'][color=purple]
Basically, God was a Man, referred to in masculine words, incarnate as man...Man = God, Woman... woman helper of man... still a noble thing! but helper of man... lower than man..., Woman is not God, only Man is God. You know, that superficial thing. I mean... it looks really judgemental, unequal is expected because we're people and God's God, but it's like, saying God is like one and not like the other kinda gives off a bad vibe to the other, you know? Telling someone that the Church is still totally above and beyond terminology and respects and reveres all people is a great explanation but I still feel it could be more convincing, like there's something missing from the explanation that I haven't heard or understood yet. ...

God is still a Man... and a woman is... well... man's helper, man's supporter (noble things, but seemingly not "Godly" for God is not a Woman, he's a Man)?
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2. That may have real-life implications for how women are thought of or treated in the world, and how they think about themselves.

[quote name='Snowcatpa' date='Jun 20 2005, 12:21 PM']Combined with an all-male clergy, the use of women as symbols of uncleanliness and wickedness in the Bible, and interpretations by renowned saints and scholars it doesn't exactly call to the average young woman of today to love herself as a child of God...    ...
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[quote name='Snowcatpa' date='Jun 24 2005, 06:57 PM']to be in persona Christi for the Eucharist, the person must be a man. Which then means all the clergy are men and the controlling powers are men and the world thus functions on this underlying principal - that God is man and is not woman... in a very real world, that fundamental distinction has some pretty strong implications for women. 
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Does that make sense?

[Snowcatpa]

Thank you so much for your explication Apotheoun. I totally got it And I think it's really cool!... layer after layer of divine similies in comparision to our own gender for us to understand is just too cool... just SO cool sometimes Makes you all giddy...

But that's not really what bothers me... it's what, translated into the real world, that means -- women being less than Men, who are inherently more equated with God than women are.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Snowcatpa' date='Jun 24 2005, 03:46 PM']1.  [. . .]  Man is God and Woman is not.
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This sentence is poorly worded.

Although all human beings (male and female) become divine through grace (divine energy), not all men are "God," in the way that Jesus is God. Jesus is God through the hypostatic union, and that is unique to Him. Therefore, no one else can experience a hypostatic union.

[Snowcatpa]

[color=purple]
[quote name='Semperviva' date='Jun 24 2005, 07:26 PM']ok -well does it help that Christ said
again, like a mother hen--this is one feminine likeness of God,
so we say HE to clarify/emphasize God does more masculine things than feminine- for example
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That is an interesting idea. That He does MORE masculine things and has MORE masculine characteristics and that's why he's referred to as a he. But that still leaves my quandry, that God is a man, which translates into real life. But I totally didn't think about the does more things part ! So thanks for that

[quote name='Semperviva' date='Jun 24 2005, 07:26 PM']being the "Word made flesh" although this may gross ppl out i kinda see the eucharist as[i] like [/i] "sperm" or life-generating aspect of God's "masculine attributes"

..............(please don't laugh at me-I thought of it in adoration)
anyways i hope i am not being heretical or anything
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I take that back... that didn't make me smile... that made me freaking laugh my head off!!!


[quote name='philothea' date='Jun 24 2005, 07:28 PM']I feel entirely comfortable adoring/worshipping/loving/trusting a God who revealed himself with certain masculine aspects.  It seems fatherly, brotherly, and protecting.  I would be weirded out by a female trying to take that role.

God's "gender" (or aspects of one) mean that he's strong, loving, and protecting in a way that men are meant also to be.
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It definitely does. I hear ya there.
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[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Snowcatpa' date='Jun 24 2005, 03:52 PM']Thank you so much for your explication Apotheoun. I totally got it And I think it's really cool!... layer after layer of divine similies in comparision to our own gender for us to understand is just too cool... just SO cool sometimes Makes you all giddy...

But that's not really what bothers me... it's what, translated into the real world, that means -- women being less than Men, who are inherently more equated with God than women are.
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One thing that I would point out. The first description I gave is not a metaphor or a simile, it is the way that God actually exists.

That being said, even the other descriptions should not be reduced to mere metaphors. They are mystical realities, more real than anything we experience in the natural world.