Masculinity of God

[Semperviva]

[quote name='philothea' date='Jun 25 2005, 10:04 AM']Very nice post, Semperviva.  Thanks for sharing.
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It's all about alice von hildebrand, baby...

[Semperviva]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='Jun 25 2005, 11:50 AM']The whole Western mindset is that everything must be intellectually grasped and defined, but that's not the Byzantine way.

But as I said in my previous post, you can look at the interconnections between the mysteries of the faith, and that will reveal something to you.  In the case of the incarnation, it does make sense that the eternally generated Son of God, would be born in time as [i]Son[/i] of God.  But I think the question of "why" itself betrays a desire to know what in many cases cannot be known.
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Apoth: I may have the wrong impression of what this verse means but i think this may require intellectual (and spiritual) understanding.

"[i]Sanctify Christ as Lord in your hearts, always being ready to make a defense to everyone who asks you to give an account for the hope that is in you, yet with gentleness and reverence;[/i] ..."

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Semperviva' date='Jun 25 2005, 10:26 AM']Apoth: I may have the wrong impression of what this verse means but i think this may require intellectual (and spiritual) understanding.

"[i]Sanctify Christ as Lord in your hearts, always being ready to make a defense to everyone who asks you to give an account for the hope that is in you, yet with gentleness and reverence;[/i] ..."
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I think you're reading too much into the verse, and you're reading it in a Western manner. Because in the Byzantine tradition, even the dogmatic formulations of the Ecumenical Councils are apophatic in nature. No one can define what God is, because God is utterly incomprehensible in His essence, and completely transcends the world.

[Snowcatpa]

[color=purple]
[quote name='Semperviva' date='Jun 25 2005, 01:13 PM']God became incarnate as a man, this is divinly revealed truth
...and I was just saying I think the questions were trying to understand [i]why[/i] it is that this is so...

...since Christ is most definetely [i]not[/i] a woman, snowcapta,(I think)thought it seems to be excluding woman from[i] the dignity[/i] that Christ raises humanity to in becoming human
...that's all...
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[quote name='Semperviva' date='Jun 24 2005, 10:00 PM']..like this truth will lead to [i]what, masogyny, women's opression, loss of suffrage???  [/i]woman being put down cuz Jesus was a man???
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In an ideal world…it wouldn’t… everyone would respect and love everyone else… and also understand the dignity and value of the differentiation of roles. I think you're understanding the thrust of my questions pretty well Semperviva except for that one point. I really don't think that Christ/God's masculinity excludes women from the dignity that Christ raises to humanity itself in becoming human. In dignity we are all equal in Christ's love

Rather, I think that Christ/God's masculinity (insofar as it then excludes God from being feminine, manifested in terminology and mindset) has other implications in society for the treatment of women, the condescension of women, by people that don't understand the Role of Mary and the Church. In real life, I think it can be translated as such…

This confuses me, because I see what the Church teaches as what is divinely supposed to be necessarily incompatible with society. I know that the Church is right. But then I also see things the feminist movements did that don’t seem as bad as sometimes people make them to be (granted the underlying philosophy of why and how they did what they did might be). Like…women voting… or having better health care and child support, the ability to be protected in cases of abuse and domestic violence…which make a difference in a real world where not everyone has a support system to rely on…All that came about because of those movements...not necessarily Christianity (though the most just and honest of outcomes were undoubtedly due to the guidance of the Holy Spirit).

It’s not that I'm trying to find an answer for the argument that women are put down cause Jesus is a man… but, like those intellectuals you mentioned before, there are some strong arguments for [brace yourself for some characteristically feminist prose] the patriarchial oppression of women throughout the common era despite Jesus message being incredibly female-dignifying and SO much better than any religion/system/person treated women before.

You mentioned feminism as a metaphysical (or myopic) revolt against the characteristics of women (with de Beauvoir, the characteristic denigration of women, etc.), but I think it’s also important to not that that was one aspect of feminism…which has so many other connotations. It kinda makes me cringe when phatmassers just bash feminists in one breath - it's not dignifying for many women who are feminists in a very Catholic, Christ-centered way. We live in this … girl-power generation… not just to be like men, like the de Beauvoirs and Friedans of their time… but to find ourselves as women and use that to help society. Most recently, for example, JP the Great’s “Feminine Genius” and so-called “Mulieris Dignitatem” feminism… Feminism is not necessarily a dirty word trying to take away women from Christ… but, used most appropriately, trying to help women figure out who they are and be who Christ calls them to be ...to live for and in God.

You gave some awesome examples of feminine witness in the history of Christianity… but that unfortunately doesn’t convince me much that this has no social implications If anything, the fact that

[quote name='Semperviva' date='Jun 25 2005, 11:20 AM']1. Men take advantage of their superior strength.
2. We all overemphasize physical strength and achievements (i.e. exaggerated importance of sports).
3. We gage people by what they do. We value accomplishments that have no eternal significance. [right][snapback]622843[/snapback][/right]
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I think has even more social implications than I was even referring to! And while I completely submit to St. Edith Stein’s main functions of women,
[quote name='Semperviva' date='Jun 25 2005, 11:20 AM']protect, preserve, shelter, guard, help, bring warmth in a cold universe. i.e. to be maternal. [right][snapback]622843[/snapback][/right]
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but that doesn’t mean that we don’t have a difficult task to try to figure out what women we are supposed to be, what we're supposed to work for, what we should do?? in this age, The implications of God being male can play a significant role in how a woman is treated, how she perceives herself and how she determines what she is supposed to do in this life. Sometimes this is good... as in our our spiritual relationships... it obviously is divine truth and we are to use that to grow closer to God. But It can also be confusing, used to hurt others and degrade women, setting up institutions and rules that work against their dignity...leading to a list of abuses in the world.

I’m trying so hard to understand and submit to the roles I know God has divined for us on this earth. I believe that God has divinely formed different roles for us…. And maybe I am wrong to ask why, but I do'nt think so...if I don't ask why or try to understand... I'm short-changing myself of how much I can grow in faith because of misunderstanding. I need to grow in my faith.. oh my goodness do I... but I want to grow in the right direction.. but this... this is terribly hard for me to understand (as you all have totally grasped by now )… it plagues me every day… I know that society is wrong… but how far and in what aspect? I try to learn and read the teachings of the Church… the feminists… the arguments and the counters and I just ….can’t come to peace-of-mind. I do feel that the changes in the past 100 years have done some good, as well as bad. Reconciling this with what the Church teaches, however, is...shaking.

I’m trying to find myself as a woman, but have not yet been able to reconcile and understand what is the truth and why. I know the Catholic Church teaches the Truth. I KNOW this… and so I’m learning… but I also do not know that the complexity of this Truth has been explicated in relation to specific problems women face in their own identities today.

--- sorry for the length... I get wordy... ---
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[Quietfire]

I read a book by Frank Sheed called "Society and Sanity" and he really gets into all this.
It blew my mind, how much the Church loves women, and honors them.
But he further explains the role of society and the need for it, as opposed to some who think that God simply tolerates society(rules, laws etc).
I would recommend reading it, and if anyone knows of books that cover these subjects further...please post.

[Socrates]

[quote name='Snowcatpa' date='Jun 25 2005, 08:04 PM'][color=purple]
In an ideal world…it wouldn’t… everyone would respect and love everyone else… and also understand the dignity and value of the differentiation of roles. I think you're understanding the thrust of my questions pretty well Semperviva except for that one point. I really don't think that Christ/God's masculinity excludes women from the dignity that Christ raises to humanity itself in becoming human. In dignity we are all equal in Christ's love

Rather, I think that Christ/God's masculinity (insofar as it then excludes God from being feminine, manifested in terminology and mindset) has other implications in society for the treatment of women, the condescension of women, by people that don't understand the Role of Mary and the Church. In real life, I think it can be translated as such…

This confuses me, because I see what the Church teaches as what is divinely supposed to be necessarily incompatible with society. I know that the Church is right. But then I also see things the feminist movements did that don’t seem as bad as sometimes people make them to be (granted the underlying philosophy of why and how they did what they did might be). Like…women voting… or having better health care and child support, the ability to be protected in cases of abuse and domestic violence…which make a difference in a real world where not everyone has a support system to rely on…All that came about because of those movements...not necessarily Christianity (though the most just and honest of outcomes were undoubtedly due to the guidance of the Holy Spirit).

It’s not that I'm trying to find an answer for the argument that women are put down cause Jesus is a man… but, like those intellectuals you mentioned before, there are some strong arguments for [brace yourself for some characteristically feminist prose] the patriarchial oppression of women throughout the common era despite Jesus message being incredibly female-dignifying and SO much better than any religion/system/person treated women before.

You mentioned feminism as a metaphysical (or myopic) revolt against the characteristics of women (with de Beauvoir, the characteristic denigration of women, etc.), but I think it’s also important to not that that was one aspect of feminism…which has so many other connotations. It kinda makes me cringe when phatmassers just bash feminists in one breath - it's not dignifying for many women who are feminists in a very Catholic, Christ-centered way. We live in this … girl-power generation… not just to be like men, like the de Beauvoirs and Friedans of their time… but to find ourselves as women and use that to help society. Most recently, for example, JP the Great’s “Feminine Genius” and so-called “Mulieris Dignitatem” feminism… Feminism is not necessarily a dirty word trying to take away women from Christ… but, used most appropriately, trying to help women figure out who they are and be who Christ calls them to be ...to live for and in God.

You gave some awesome examples of feminine witness in the history of Christianity… but that unfortunately doesn’t convince me much that this has no social implications If anything, the fact that
I think has even more social implications than I was even referring to! And while I completely submit to St. Edith Stein’s main functions of women, 
but that doesn’t mean that we don’t have a difficult task to try to figure out what women we are supposed to be, what we're supposed to work for, what we should do?? in this age,  The implications of God being male can play a significant role in how a woman is treated, how she perceives herself and how she determines what she is supposed to do in this life. Sometimes this is good... as in our our spiritual relationships... it obviously is divine truth and we are to use that to grow closer to God. But It can also be confusing, used to hurt others and degrade women, setting up institutions and rules that work against their dignity...leading to a list of abuses in the world.

I’m trying so hard to understand and submit to the roles I know God has divined for us on this earth. I believe that God has divinely formed different roles for us…. And maybe I am wrong to ask why, but I do'nt think so...if I don't ask why or try to understand... I'm short-changing myself of how much I can grow in faith because of misunderstanding. I need to grow in my faith.. oh my goodness do I... but I want to grow in the right direction.. but this... this is terribly hard for me to understand (as you all have totally grasped by now )… it plagues me every day… I know that society is wrong… but how far and in what aspect? I try to learn and read the teachings of the Church…  the feminists… the arguments and the counters and I just ….can’t come to peace-of-mind. I do feel that the changes in the past 100 years have done some good, as well as bad. Reconciling this with what the Church teaches, however, is...shaking. 

I’m trying to find myself as a woman, but have not yet been able to reconcile and understand what is the truth and why. I know the Catholic Church teaches the Truth. I KNOW this… and so I’m learning… but I also do not know that the complexity of this Truth has been explicated in relation to specific problems women face in their own identities today.

--- sorry for the length... I get wordy... ---
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Sorry if this comes off as harsh, but have you encountered any genuine problems of women being mistreated because of the Church's teachings about God, or are you just listening to the rhetoric of radical feminists?

Exactly what abuses and degrading of women is caused by Church Teaching?

Before Christianity, things were actually much more difficult for women (feminist myth to the contrary). A man could legally sell his wife as a slave, or put her to death for any reasons, to give just a few instances.

People who abuse or degrade women, do not, as far as I am aware, do this because of Catholic Church teaching. Most abusive men do need religion as an excuse for their abusive behavior. And from my experience, devoutly religious Catholic husbands tend to treat their wives with more love and respect than those who are irreligious.

In today's world, most of the abuse and degradation of women comes from those who are not Catholic (Muslims, Hindus, etc.) and those who act irreligiously (pornography, the abortion industry, the prostitution and sex trade, etc.)

Snowcatpa, have really encountered abuse of women caused by Catholic teaching, or are you just listening to the gripings of bitter nuns who want to be priests, worship a "Goddess" and the like?

In Christ,

Socrates

Edited June 26, 2005 by Socrates

[Apotheoun]

Asking questions is a good thing, but sometimes the answers will elude us, because the answers essentially transcends us. We must not fall into rationalism and think that we can comprehend the incomprehensible. The questions that Job asked of God are an example of this, and here are some of the Lord's answers to him, and Job's response:

Job 38:1-41 and Job 40:1-5

[38:1] Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind:
[2] "Who is this that darkens counsel by words without knowledge?
[3] Gird up your loins like a man,
I will question you, and you shall declare to me.
[4] "Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth?
Tell me, if you have understanding.
[5] Who determined its measurements -- surely you know!
Or who stretched the line upon it?
[6] On what were its bases sunk,
or who laid its cornerstone,
[7] when the morning stars sang together,
and all the sons of God shouted for joy?
[8] "Or who shut in the sea with doors,
when it burst forth from the womb;
[9] when I made clouds its garment,
and thick darkness its swaddling band,
[10] and prescribed bounds for it,
and set bars and doors,
[11] and said, `Thus far shall you come, and no farther,
and here shall your proud waves be stayed'?
[12] "Have you commanded the morning since your days began,
and caused the dawn to know its place,
[13] that it might take hold of the skirts of the earth,
and the wicked be shaken out of it?
[14] It is changed like clay under the seal,
and it is dyed like a garment.
[15] From the wicked their light is withheld,
and their uplifted arm is broken.
[16] "Have you entered into the springs of the sea,
or walked in the recesses of the deep?
[17] Have the gates of death been revealed to you,
or have you seen the gates of deep darkness?
[18] Have you comprehended the expanse of the earth?
Declare, if you know all this.
[19] "Where is the way to the dwelling of light,
and where is the place of darkness,
[20] that you may take it to its territory
and that you may discern the paths to its home?
[21] You know, for you were born then,
and the number of your days is great!
[22] "Have you entered the storehouses of the snow,
or have you seen the storehouses of the hail,
[23] which I have reserved for the time of trouble,
for the day of battle and war?
[24] What is the way to the place where the light is distributed,
or where the east wind is scattered upon the earth?
[25] "Who has cleft a channel for the torrents of rain,
and a way for the thunderbolt,
[26] to bring rain on a land where no man is,
on the desert in which there is no man;
[27] to satisfy the waste and desolate land,
and to make the ground put forth grass?
[28] "Has the rain a father,
or who has begotten the drops of dew?
[29] From whose womb did the ice come forth,
and who has given birth to the hoarfrost of heaven?
[30] The waters become hard like stone,
and the face of the deep is frozen.
[31] "Can you bind the chains of the Plei'ades,
or loose the cords of Orion?
[32] Can you lead forth the Maz'zaroth in their season,
or can you guide the Bear with its children?
[33] Do you know the ordinances of the heavens?
Can you establish their rule on the earth?
[34] "Can you lift up your voice to the clouds,
that a flood of waters may cover you?
[35] Can you send forth lightnings, that they may go
and say to you, `Here we are'?
[36] Who has put wisdom in the clouds,
or given understanding to the mists?
[37] Who can number the clouds by wisdom?
Or who can tilt the waterskins of the heavens,
[38] when the dust runs into a mass
and the clods cleave fast together?
[39] "Can you hunt the prey for the lion,
or satisfy the appetite of the young lions,
[40] when they crouch in their dens,
or lie in wait in their covert?
[41] Who provides for the raven its prey,
when its young ones cry to God,
and wander about for lack of food?

[. . .]

[40:1] And the LORD said to Job:
[2] "Shall a faultfinder contend with the Almighty?
He who argues with God, let him answer it."
[3] Then Job answered the LORD:
[4] "Behold, I am of small account; what shall I answer thee?
I lay my hand on my mouth.
[5] I have spoken once, and I will not answer;
twice, but I will proceed no further."

[Semperviva]

[quote name='Snowcatpa' date='Jun 25 2005, 08:04 PM'][color=purple]


This confuses me, because I see what the Church teaches as what is divinely supposed to be necessarily incompatible with society. I know that the Church is right. But then I also see things the feminist movements did that don’t seem as bad as sometimes people make them to be (granted the underlying philosophy of why and how they did what they did might be).



You mentioned feminism as a metaphysical (or myopic) revolt against the characteristics of women (with de Beauvoir, the characteristic denigration of women, etc.), but I think it’s also important to not that that was one aspect of feminism…which has so many other connotations. It kinda makes me cringe when phatmassers just bash feminists in one breath -  Feminism is not necessarily a dirty word trying to take away women from Christ… but, used most appropriately, trying to help women figure out who they are and be who Christ calls them to be ...to live for and in God.

You gave some awesome examples of feminine witness in the history of Christianity… but that unfortunately doesn’t convince me much that this has no social implications

If anything, the fact that
I think has even more social implications than I was even referring to!  

but that doesn’t mean that we don’t have a difficult task to try to figure out what women we are supposed to be, what we're supposed to work for, what we should do?? in this age,  The implications of God being male can play a significant role in how a woman is treated, how she perceives herself and how she determines what she is supposed to do in this life. It can also be confusing, used to hurt others and degrade women, setting up institutions and rules that work against their dignity...leading to a list of abuses in the world.

… I know that society is wrong… but how far and in what aspect? I try to learn and read the teachings of the Church…  the feminists… the arguments and the counters and I just ….can’t come to peace-of-mind. I do feel that the changes in the past 100 years have done some good, as well as bad. [b]Reconciling this with what the Church teaches, however, is...shaking.  [/b]

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OK:

I think its important to note that not everything feminist is bad. The link I put on the alice von hildebrand post has a more full explanation of why the reasons for the feminist movement were good, but were channeled into the wrong things, in which woman sacrificed her true nature to become a competitor with man instead of a companion. The bad part is the channeling of a good movement into the secular ideals, it seems.

Here's an example of a good form of feminism. The original feminists were very prolife, Susan B Anthony spoke out about the horror of abortion, etc, etc. I think the corruption sortof of feminism really came about with Sanger and her bitter anti-Catholic sentiments, anti-life, anti-God ideas...Check this out:

[url="http://"]Feminists For Life[/url]

Have you heard of them? Edith Stein before she converted was an atheist and a feminist in the secular sense (pretty sure), so maybe you should read more of her as she wrote alot about womanhood and "The Feminine Soul" etc etc, reconciling the Church and feminism, the same way you are attempting too. it can be done, don't worry. Everything can be restored in Christ, even Feminism. (Sorry if the von hildebrand thing diden't help ) lol...

Edited June 26, 2005 by Semperviva

[Semperviva]

[url="http://http://www.feministsforlife.org/"]THIS ONE WORKS, haha[/url]

[b]computers...machines...aaagh![/b]

[Semperviva]

[url="http://www.feministsforlife.org/"]AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAgggh...ok, THIS ONE hahaha[/url]

[philothea]

Uh uh... Just trying to get that post count up. I can tell

[Semperviva]

[quote name='philothea' date='Jun 25 2005, 10:11 PM']Uh uh... Just trying to get that post count up.  I can tell  
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Hahaha, shut up! I thought this was interesting, maybe irrrelevent- NO-its not, lol its shows PART of the reason feminism came about, cause PROTESTANT society IS ANTI-woman and distorts woman hood LITERALLY DISTORTS her, her body, her role, her child-bearing ability, her soul ( ie dung heap covered in snow, etc, lol) , everything!

[i][b]THE CORSETTE THEORY[/b][/i]

I later found evidence that the shape of the corset could influence the shape of the spine, and that the high waisted corsets compressed the lungs to cause respiratory diseases, and that low waisted corsets compressed the womb to cause problems with menstruation, pregnancy, and childbirth, and that corsets generally caused problems for most of the women who wore them, to such an extent that [i]they gave women the reputation for being the weaker sex.[/i] This was [i]despite[/i] the fact that some men wore corsets and were also sickly, and that some country girls continued to wear loose garments and remained healthy and robust.
Corsets also [b]trapped blood below the waist and reduced blood flow to the brain[/b], ([b]ouchie! reduced blood flow to the brain too- gosh!) [/b]so virtually all women who wore them tended to faint, and many of women had severe fainting fits which were generally referred to as hysterical fits because of the popular belief that they were caused by psychological factors.

Sooooooooooo...after stuff like this...woman started getting, um, ticked about this sortof thing I guess, and that they coulden't be considered worth anything unless they destroyed themselves-oh! but wait- they still do this don't they? just in different ways, hhhmm? So something went wrong with feminism i suppose...LOL...we need to make it MARIAN FEMINISM I think.... that's all.....(BTW: i meant this as [b]JUST ONE [/b]Legitimate reason for feminists beginnings...look for more on the history of feminism segment of the link)

[Semperviva]

[quote name='Semperviva' date='Jun 25 2005, 10:19 PM']
[i][b]THE CORSETTE THEORY[/b][/i]

[i]they gave women the reputation for being the weaker sex.[/i] This was [i]despite[/i] the fact that some men wore corsets and were also sickly, and that some country girls continued to wear loose garments and remained healthy and robust.

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LIke AVH said, its [color=orange]Original Sin and Protestant ideologies[/color] that causes the subjugation of woman, not Catholic theological teaching of Christ as true God and true man, lol.

Cheers!

Edited June 26, 2005 by Semperviva

[Semperviva]

oops resent this one- [i]NO NOT trying to get post count up , gOsh![/i]

Edited June 26, 2005 by Semperviva

[Snowcatpa]

[quote name='Semperviva' date='Jun 26 2005, 12:03 AM']I think its important to note that not everything feminist is bad.  The link I put on the alice von hildebrand post has a more full explanation of why the reasons for the feminist movement were good, but were channeled into the wrong things, in which woman sacrificed her true nature to become a competitor with man instead of a companion.  The bad part is the channeling of a good movement into the secular ideals, it seems.
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[color=purple]
You are on my thought track ma'am! I am actually a member of Feminists for Life and they have some great articles too. I think there was a thread on here a while back about Feminists for Life? I don't quite remember... but I do remember reading it and being like... Feminists for Life... I love them! (they are not affliated with any religion though, I don't think they want to alienate)

I definitely have to read Hildebrand and Stein... i think they would help ... You're awesome [/color]