Masculinity of God

[p0lar_bear]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='Jul 13 2005, 12:39 PM']I think it's best to stick to what has been revealed, bearing in mind always the apophatic nature of theological language.
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But we have not plumbed the depths of revelation yet. Would you say that JPII shouldn't have explored the theology of the body because it wasn't explicitly revealed? Besides, that response still doesn't address the Scriptural and medieval references to the feminine divine.

I'm not saying that this is a subject for your average person to pursue. Before seriously looking into this, one would need a solid foundation. However, I think it is still within the realm of legitimate theological discussion ([i]not[/i] catechesis). If I opt for a doctorate, this is a topic I've considered for my dissertation.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='p0lar_bear' date='Jul 13 2005, 09:08 AM']But we have not plumbed the depths of revelation yet. Would you say that JPII shouldn't have explored the theology of the body because it wasn't explicitly revealed? Besides, that response still doesn't address the Scriptural and medieval references to the feminine divine.

I'm not saying that this is a subject for your average person to pursue. Before seriously looking into this, one would need a solid foundation. However, I think it is still within the realm of legitimate theological discussion ([i]not[/i] catechesis). If I opt for a doctorate, this is a topic I've considered for my dissertation.
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My concern is focused on Triadology, because the introduction of femininity into God's hypostatic relations would cause major theological problems.

[Semperviva]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='Jul 13 2005, 10:39 AM']I think it's best to stick to what has been revealed, bearing in mind always the apophatic nature of theological language.
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wow.
i completely disagree. if you are talking dogma and theological language alone- sure, stick to whats been revealed, you wanna play it safe there

but where does "what has been revealed" come from? Revelation, originally comes through personal revelation, through individuals ...does it not? prophets, inspired writers, saints, theologians

..........without reciprical relationship, personal interaction between Christ and you, through the working of the Holy Spirit, or theosis, the already revealed truths will mean nothing to you.....[i]you can know it and never, ever know it.....[/i]personal revelation if genuine only backs up the already revealed truth and makes it more fully understandable.....if you just stick with the textbook truths...well what will you have?....a relationship with a textbook.....thats why i wonder why you stay stick with whats been revealed....cause we're not talking just theological language---what is theological language all about>>>>>>reaching sanctity....or at least if it isin't >>it should be, or else it means nothing....[i]who want's to be the greatest theologian in Hell? [/i] i prefer to be the clueless beggar who limps intoHeaven blessing God for his table scraps...............genuine personal revelations really are only your loss if you ignore them. i hope i misunderstand what you mean.

[i]postscriptum: not saying you are going to Hell nonono...[/i]

Edited July 13, 2005 by Semperviva

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Semperviva' date='Jul 13 2005, 09:13 AM']wow.
i completely disagree.  if you are talking dogma and theological language alone- sure, stick to whats been revealed, you wanna play it safe there

but where does "what has been revealed" come from? Revelation, originally comes through personal revelation, through individuals ...does it not? prophets, inspired writers, saints, theologians

..........without reciprical relationship, personal interaction between Christ and you, through the working of the Holy Spirit, or theosis, the already revealed truths will mean nothing to you.....[i]you can know it and never, ever know it.....[/i]personal revelation if genuine only backs up the already revealed truth and makes it more fully understandable.....if you just stick with the textbook truths...well what will you have?....a relationship with a textbook.....thats why i wonder why you stay stick with whats been revealed....cause we're not talking just theological language---what is theological language all about>>>>>>reaching sanctity....or at least if it isin't >>it should be, or else it means nothing....[i]who want's to be the greatest theologian in Hell? [/i] i prefer to be the clueless beggar who limps intoHeaven blessing God for his table scraps...............genuine personal revelations really are only your loss if you ignore them.  i hope i misunderstand what you mean.

[i]postscriptum: not saying you are going to Hell nonono...[/i]
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Look what happened when the West added the [i]filioque[/i] to the creed. The movement to reinterpret the Trinity by feminizing one or more of the hypostases would set back ecumenical relations with the Orthodox for centuries.

[Apotheoun]

When I spoke about "what has been revealed" I was referring to public revelation, not private revelations. Private revelations are not binding on the Church, nor can they add any data to the deposit of faith.

[Semperviva]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='Jul 13 2005, 11:19 AM']
Look what happened when the West added the [i]filioque[/i] to the creed. The movement to reinterpret the Trinity by feminizing one or more of the hypostases would set back ecumenical relations with the Orthodox for centuries.
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ok.
um, i think the problem's with the Orthodox and the West goes way deeper than theological definition. a good friend of mine came under Rome after growing up Greek Orthodox.....the seperation is not solely about defintion to most Orthodox.......its a way more personal thing

So, yes,
reinterpretation causes problems...so what? What is a trial for the sake of truth? [b]No longer a trial.[/b] What is suffering when oned to Christ, [b]no longer suffering,[/b] but love. Trials should be "counted all joy" in the context of this relationship with Christ. Reinterpretation is [b]for the sake of truth[/b], at the prompting of the Holy Spirit. If it causes division...we still can't sacrifice it because this division will occur (try to avoid it of course).
Christ "reinterpreted" Jewish law.....i think he maybe had some trials there......
I do not think reinterpret fully explains what occurs with the development of a dogma, either. Its a greater understanding of what was there all along, as truth is, [i]what is.[/i]

Now, lol, just a disclaimer[b] i'm not saying we need to redefine God here...at all...........[/b]i'm just saying if someone, say with the [i]filioque[/i], was truly inspired by God to do so.......they should

[Semperviva]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='Jul 13 2005, 11:23 AM']When I spoke about "what has been revealed" I was referring to public revelation, not private revelations.  Private revelations are not binding on the Church, nor can they add any data to the deposit of faith.
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yes...i was pretty sure thats what you meant....

..uuhh.......no they can't add to the entire [i]deposit of faith....[/i] what bothers me is how you reference the faith like its a fancy hard drive....

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Semperviva' date='Jul 13 2005, 09:41 AM']yes...i was pretty sure thats what you meant....

..uuhh.......no they can't add to the entire [i]deposit of faith....[/i]  what bothers me is how you reference the faith like its a fancy hard drive....
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A fancy harddrive, dear oh dear. Our new Pope speaks that way also, I hope that doesn't bother you.

[p0lar_bear]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='Jul 13 2005, 01:12 PM']My concern is focused on Triadology, because the introduction of femininity into God's hypostatic relations would cause major theological problems.
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Haven't the medievals already done that? It didn't cause problems for them to discuss the feminine divine, their trinitarian theology did not suffer.

I understand your concern, but I still think there is room for this.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='p0lar_bear' date='Jul 13 2005, 09:54 AM']Haven't the medievals already done that? It didn't cause problems for them to discuss the feminine divine, their trinitarian theology did not suffer.

I understand your concern, but I still think there is room for this.
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Maybe in the West, but not in the East. As a Palamite I reject the speculative theology of the Scholastics.

[p0lar_bear]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='Jul 13 2005, 01:59 PM']Maybe in the West, but not in the East.  As a Palamite I reject the speculative theology of the Scholastics.
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That doesn't mean I have to, or that the Church has to...

[Semperviva]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='Jul 13 2005, 11:50 AM']A fancy harddrive, dear oh dear.  Our new Pope speaks that way also, I hope that doesn't bother you.


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ha! no he does not...he does it RIGHT...so there....and Christ IS the sum of Revelation and he is NOT data. he's a person...haha ...uh..hey do you know mike sirillo? he's a Thomist prof there...and like i said earlier....its only your loss to reject what the saints have been granted to know by grace...what about St. Faustina's revelations....you reject that too? dang, yer insane....even Dante is said in legend to have received his ideas for the Divina Commedia in visions...you really miss out on alot, buddy-haha-but hey, "stick with public revelation" by all means.....

[Semperviva]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='Jul 13 2005, 11:59 AM']Maybe in the West, but not in the East.  As a Palamite I reject the speculative theology of the Scholastics.
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hmm, also, you ,lose a ton by sticking with Palamas....cuz palamas diden't stick to himself......you shoulden't either

[Semperviva]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='Jul 13 2005, 11:50 AM']A fancy harddrive, dear oh dear.  Our new Pope speaks that way also, I hope that doesn't bother you.


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yoooooooooou drive me iiiiiiinsaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaane LOL the pope is sooooo [b]not [/b]like,
"the data for the sum of the equation of my faith is R (public revelation) + 0r ( private revelation) = me = " hahahahaha

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Semperviva' date='Jul 13 2005, 10:10 AM']ha! no he does not...he does it RIGHT...so there....and Christ IS the sum of Revelation and he is NOT data. he's a person...haha ...uh..hey do you know mike sirillo? he's a Thomist prof there...and like i said earlier....its only your loss to reject what the saints have been granted to know by grace...what about St. Faustina's revelations....you reject that too? dang, yer insane....even Dante is said in legend to have received his ideas for the Divina Commedia in visions...you really miss out on alot, buddy-haha-but hey, "stick with public revelation" by all means.....
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"The truths belonging to this second paragraph can be of various natures, thus giving different qualities to their relationship with revelation. There are truths which are necessarily connected with revelation by virtue of an historical relationship; while other truths evince a logical connection that expresses a stage in the maturation of understanding of revelation which the Church is called to undertake. The fact that these doctrines may not be proposed as formally revealed, insofar as they add to the [b]data[/b] of faith elements that are not revealed or which are not yet expressly recognized as such, in no way diminishes their definitive character, which is required at least by their intrinsic connection with revealed truth. Moreover, it cannot be excluded that at a certain point in dogmatic development, the understanding of the realities and the words of the deposit of faith can progress in the life of the Church, and the Magisterium may proclaim some of these doctrines as also dogmas of divine and catholic faith." [Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger, [u]Official Doctrinal Commentary on the Professio Fidei[/u], no. 7]

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Semperviva' date='Jul 13 2005, 10:19 AM']yoooooooooou drive me iiiiiiinsaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaane LOL the pope is sooooo [b]not [/b]like,
"the data for the sum of the equation of my faith is R (public revelation) + 0r ( private revelation) = me = " hahahahaha
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Public revelation has ceased, because the incarnation is the definitive revelation of the Father by the Son. There will be no new public revelation until the Parousia.

[Semperviva]

[i]My concern is focused on Triadology, because the introduction of femininity into God's hypostatic relations would cause major theological problems.[/i]


YOU MUST IN SOME SENSE INCLUDED SOME ASPECT OF FEMININITY in God's hypostatic relations---or else God would not be what he has revealed himself to be. Both male and female are created in God's image. If there is no aspect of femininity in God's hypostatic relations then we must assume that only males are made in the image of God. Whatever theological problems you have need to be addressed and not swept under the rug.

[Semperviva]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='Jul 13 2005, 12:29 PM']Public revelation has ceased, because the incarnation is the definitive revelation of the Father by the Son.  There will be no new public revelation until the Parousia.
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wow,
thank u for informing me of things i have known since 1st grade...always good to recap...

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Semperviva' date='Jul 13 2005, 10:29 AM'][i]My concern is focused on Triadology, because the introduction of femininity into God's hypostatic relations would cause major theological problems.[/i]
YOU MUST IN SOME SENSE INCLUDED SOME ASPECT OF FEMININITY in God's hypostatic relations---or else God would not be what he has revealed himself to be.  Both male and female are created in God's image.  If there is no aspect of femininity in God's hypostatic relations then we must assume that only males are made in the image of God.  Whatever theological problems you have need to be addressed and not swept under the rug.
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No I must not, because that has not been revealed, and the hypostatic relations are only known because of divine revelation. They cannot be known at all by the light of unaided reason. The hypostatic properties of the Father, Son, Holy Spirit reveal the inner life of God, as He Himself has revealed it to mankind. No one can add to this definitive revelation.

[Semperviva]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='Jul 13 2005, 12:24 PM']"The truths belonging to this second paragraph can be of various natures, thus giving different qualities to their relationship with revelation. There are truths which are necessarily connected with revelation by virtue of an historical relationship; while other truths evince a logical connection that expresses a stage in the maturation of understanding of revelation which the Church is called to undertake. The fact that these doctrines may not be proposed as formally revealed, insofar as they add to the [b]data[/b] of faith elements that are not revealed or which are not yet expressly recognized as such, in no way diminishes their definitive character, which is required at least by their intrinsic connection with revealed truth. Moreover, it cannot be excluded that at a certain point in dogmatic development, the understanding of the realities and the words of the deposit of faith can progress in the life of the Church, and the Magisterium may proclaim some of these doctrines as also dogmas of divine and catholic faith." [Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger, [u]Official Doctrinal Commentary on the Professio Fidei[/u], no. 7]
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its not the words tehmselves its the attitude informing the words