Question for anyone

[Socrates]

[quote name='TLJC' date='Jul 16 2005, 03:14 PM']Very true,

but maybe someone can answer me this quick question.
If the priest thinks your just confessing but your not really sorry he doesnt have to grant you a seal and can turn you into the police?

God only takes away our sins if we truly are sorry...   

If someone does a crime in the eyes of the law such as drink driving but not a sin under the church or God is that a sin? If we kill someone we have taken a life though a crime of DUI and caused death so is this a sin to be confessed to even though we are serving say 20 years prison for an "earth crime"
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According to the old Baltimore Catechism, reckless or drunk driving is a sin against the fifth commandment, because it needlessly endangers lives. One must sacramentally confess one's sins for the purpose of obtaining Christ's forgiveness. This is a seperate matter from whether one has done his time for his crimes under the law.

Also, the Church teaches that the fourth commandment commands us to obey the civil law as long as the law in question does not go against God's law.

Edited July 16, 2005 by Socrates

[Norseman82]

[quote name='hot stuff' date='Jul 12 2005, 02:21 PM']For example, (and someone can correct me here) I do not believe someone can be immediately absolved of abortion.  I think there is a formal process that must be taken.  [right][snapback]641024[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]

You are correct. Abortion incurs an automatic excommunication, and that is probably why normally the bishop must do the absolution. See canons 1398 and 508.

Now, here is something interesting that I found in the 1983 code of canon law regarding sanctions and penalties. In canon 1357 section 2 it states (regarding "emergency" confessions for automatic excommunications):

"In granting a remission, the confessor is to impose on the penitent the burden of having recourse within a month to a superior or priest endowed with the faculties and obeying his mandates under pain of reincidence of the penalty; in the meantime he should impose an appropriate penance and the reparation of any scandal or damage to the extent it is imperative; recourse can also be made by the confessor without mentioning any names."

Although this seems to be limited to certain situations, what I find interesting are the notions of "reincidence of penalties" if the penitent does not follow the mandate of the confessor and the "recourse without mentioning any names". At first glance these seem to be giving the confessor options of repairing damage without breaking the seal of confession.

Perhaps Frs. Pontifex or Cappie can comment on this?

[Norseman82]

[quote name='Socrates' date='Jul 16 2005, 04:47 PM']According to the old Baltimore Catechism, reckless or drunk driving is a sin against the fifth commandment, because it needlessly endangers lives.  [right][snapback]645725[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]

I've seen it in the new Catechism as well....

[Briguy]

I'll wait for my other question to be answered before I continue.

Thanks for the good answers.

In Christ,
Brian

[jasJis]

Briguy,
I'm not sure exactly what your specific question is/was that has not been answered.

A Catholic believes in God. A Christian believes that God will achieve perfect Justice. In the scenario you used, it seems impossible for humans to effect perfect Justice here on earth and still provide a real avenue of repentance and forgiveness. God will punish and reward with perfect Mercy and perfect Justice in our life with Him. "Vengance is mine, sayeth the Lord".

[Briguy]

Hi jasJis, This was the question from above:

""Second, you said a person can ask for a different penance. How many times? What if all they want is to say 100 "hail Mary's" and so they hold out for that because it is all they can handle. Is that Justice? Holy Justice?""

[Laudate_Dominum]

confusing your statement is. mercy do you not consider? much anger I sense in you, the path to the dark side this is.

[Quietfire]

Thank you Yoda

[Briguy]

Hi guys, Hey, I like Star Wars also. Did you watch Return of the Jedi, Special Edition lately. They did a real cool thing at the end but I won't say what it is in case you haven't seen it yet. Ok, back to the subject. I was not angry at all when I wrote that question. I am sorry it seemed like that. It is a real question that I have because I don't understand. As a Dad I gave my children the punishment I think they deserve. They cannot ask for a different one. well, then again they could ask but I most likely would not change the punishment. Also I would NEVER give a punishment they could not handle. I know my children well enough to not do that. Which come to think of it begs a second question. If the priest is "Jesus on earth" in terms of granting forgiveness should "Jesus" not know his children well enough to know what they can handle for penance? Lets face it Jesus would know but if the priest doesn't doesn't that show a flaw in the process? I have more to say but will wait for a response to both questions before I go on.

In Christ who saves,
Brian

[son_of_angels]

Actually, in the early church penances were given in front of the whole congregation, and absolution was reserved to the Bishop, so the seal of the confession is something which, possibly, is something imposed as a discipline in the Church.
It is, however, a discipline that is so serious, as it regards the content of someone's sin that it bars the priest from the Sacraments, making his soul in danger of hell.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Briguy' date='Jul 19 2005, 08:37 AM']Hi jasJis, This was the question from above:

""Second, you said a person can ask for a different penance. How many times? What if all they want is to say 100 "hail Mary's" and so they hold out for that because it is all they can handle. Is that Justice? Holy Justice?""
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Bri I have asked for different penances if the penance was already something I was doing, such as attending daily Mass. I obviously couldn't attend two daily Massses so I requested a different one.

[jasJis]

[quote name='Briguy' date='Jul 20 2005, 07:39 AM']If the priest is "Jesus on earth" in terms of granting forgiveness should "Jesus" not know his children well enough to know what they can handle for penance?  Lets face it Jesus would know but if the priest doesn't doesn't that show a flaw in the process? [right][snapback]650805[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]
Flaw? OF COURSE!! We're human, as are the priests. Jesus gave His 'authority', not His divine powers. God knows how and what He let's us do and will over-rule as He deems is proper. Suffice to say, humans can't see the entire picture, and we have to have faith in God's perfection to ultimately perfect things in the time frame God wants.

[jasJis]

[quote name='Briguy' date='Jul 19 2005, 07:37 AM']Hi jasJis, This was the question from above:

""Second, you said a person can ask for a different penance. How many times? What if all they want is to say 100 "hail Mary's" and so they hold out for that because it is all they can handle. Is that Justice? Holy Justice?""
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God can and will answer t hat question. The idea that we humans must be able to answer that question now is a sign that we lack proper humility or lack trust in God.

[ironmonk]

[quote name='TLJC' date='Jul 11 2005, 10:24 AM']very good points there people... nicely put.

Lets say the man did repent and was sorry and could see the error in his ways. He still wasn't ready to go to the police.

Keeping in mind in England the law says no special requirement is given to any religion. Could this be classed as "with holding evidence" from the police.

As Catholics do we help a family that really needs help and also put an evil person somewhere he cant hurt again, or do we protect him.
Its a hard question....
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The Catholic Church is the oldest organization on earth given authority by God Himself. The Catholic Church only answers to God. No government on earth has authority over the Catholic Church... governments can persecute us but will never have authority.

Anything said in the confessional is between the sinner and Christ. The Priest is Christ's stand in. The speaking of the sin to a priest is the seal. The Church has spoken and there is nothing to debate.

What is more important a law by men or a law from God? God must come first. If the government attacks the Church for keeping it's loyalty to God, then that government will have to deal with God. There is much more to reality than this world. If we make it to Heaven, this life will seem like a distant dream.




[b]1467 [/b]
Given the delicacy and greatness of this ministry and the respect due to persons, the Church declares that [u][b]every priest who hears confessions is bound under very severe penalties to keep absolute secrecy [/b][/u]regarding the sins that his penitents have confessed to him. He can make no use of knowledge that confession gives him about penitents' lives.72 This secret, [b]which admits of no exceptions, is called the "sacramental seal,"[/b] because what the penitent has made known to the priest remains "sealed" by the sacrament.



God Bless,
ironmonk

[Briguy]

Interesting stuff, thanks for the answers. Here is a follow up question to my first question. Can a person in confession keep asking for another penance or will the priest at some point say take it or leave it?

I have always said that humans are flawed and that to me is the danger in confession. On one hand the confession is between God/Jesus and the person (the priest being Jesus). On the other hand you have no problem saying that the human priest can flaw the process. Why is God not able to make this sacrament perfect? If the priest is acting for God, why does God not miraculously (sp? - mind blank) come to the confessional and make the whole thing perfect? as Catholics you believe a miracle takes place ever time you have Communion (Lord's supper). I am not being a wise guy. I really think that is a good question. God can manifest himself in one sacrament but not in another. You say there is an unbreakable seal but also that there can be flawed men and a flawed process. Just trying to dig deep here and understand. Please just be challanged and not offended. I, by nature, take very deep looks at things to gain understanding. Thanks for helping me take a good look at this.

In Christian love and concern,
Brian