Is It Just Me?

[Aloysius]

the reverent look on his face and his reverent action during much of the craziness of the music was more of a testimony to the inappropriateness of the music than any ban he could have placed on it. I would use a tape of him doing the mass during that music to illustrate WHY such music is inappropriate, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to watch his reverence and see a dichotemy between it and all that nutty music.

I really felt close to him here... it's just like the way I feel when I attend lifeteen mass with all that crazy music. the kids being there is great, the part about reverence and sacredness they are missing is not great. do a side-by-side video of my face during a lifeteen mass and benedict's face during this WYD mass, and they will be the same expression... simple ignoring of the music and reverent adoration.

anyway, I do think that image of his actions in the midst of that music is a better testimony than it would have been for him to squelch the aspiritions of all those young musicians. eventually they'll realize it, that as they play all this music it is just not fitting in with what he is doing.

and did you notice some of that crazy music was infected with globs of a traditional style? especially the gloria, how it would stop on an important phrase and they'd chant it. a step forward.

[Birgitta Noel]

Ok, so here's my question. And this is a serious question, I'm not trying to be passive aggressive and whatnot.

If they had used ALL latin, but infused the music with ethnic rhythms, instruments, etc. would y'all have been ok with that?

Edited to emphasize "ALL" latin!

Edited August 23, 2005 by Birgitta Noel

[Aloysius]

they somewhat DID, at least for the gloria.

that's what caused me to burst out laughing! lol.

it's the style of music... I would rather see gregorian chant (VII says should have pride of place) and polyphany (prime among any other music allowed) in vernacular than craziness in latin.

but it was WYD. and I do cherish the image of dichotemy between the music and what the pope was doing while celebrating mass.

[Jaime]

[quote]anyway, I do think that image of his actions in the midst of that music is a better testimony than it would have been for him to squelch the aspiritions of all those young musicians. eventually they'll realize it, that as they play all this music it is just not fitting in with what he is doing.
[/quote]

That is rich

So you believe that the Holy Father wanted to spare the feelings of a handful of young musicians? He would rather have an inappropriate liturgical abuse for a million people in attendance and even more witnessing the mass worldwide? Sorry I don't buy it.

When WYD started and the music was spotlighted, it was because JPII was "liturgically liberal" and it was blamed on Marini. Now with a pope who is clearly "liturgically conservative" by all accounts, the Pope's actions are being defended as being kind to musicians.

Perhaps it is simply not an abuse.


BTW it has been said that Marini has been reassigned. Does anyone have a link to confirm that?

[Fides_et_Ratio]

[url="http://www.chiesa.espressonline.it/dettaglio.jsp?id=32905&eng=y"]http://www.chiesa.espressonline.it/dettagl...?id=32905&eng=y[/url]

[Piccoli Fiori JMJ]

I liked the cultural music from different regions, that was fine with me... but the rest of it was hokey... I saw so much reverence at a 6am Mass at the Kolner Dom than at the Papal Mass on Sunday

[azaelia]

To everyone saying that we were catering to other cultures with the use of different instruments....


Since when was electric guitar an acceptable liturgical instrument in [b]any country[/b]?

Oh and the hand-motions were definitely not cultural, and the whole song was in English.

[Fides_et_Ratio]

hot stuff, are you just playing devil's advocate, or do you really think the Holy Father wanted the entire Liturgy to unfold as played at WYD?

I think it more impossible to buy the notion that he not only "approved" (which I don't think he did in any formal fashion) the liturgy, but wanted it that way when you consider his past liturgical stances. Or are you aware of some giant interior conversion he's had since his election?

I'm not saying that I believe the Holy Father was completely and utterly dissatisfied with WYD, or that he hated the litugy-- he obviously still participated and that says something. Perhaps they weren't the greatest liturgical abuses in the world (the gravest are in the hands of the celebrant, anyway) and so he allowed it for numerous reasons. That's not speaking "for" the Pope (even though, aren't you doing the same by suggesting he liked it?) it was giving plausible reasons for his inaction in regards to the music, etc. during WYD because it was being claimed that he "should've done something" when in fact there were only so many options... hence, we pick and choose our battles. Maybe the WYD music sucked for the most part, maybe it didn't quite fit in with the liturgy nor the liturgical ideas previously expressed by Pope Benedict XVI, but just because he didn't throw a fit, hop on a plane to Rome, and cancel WYD does not mean that he "approved" or even liked the Liturgy.

[Piccoli Fiori JMJ]

I say next year we host a WYD bonfire and burn the guitars
Well, not next year, but next time...

[Jaime]

[quote name='Fides_et_Ratio' date='Aug 23 2005, 08:22 AM'][url="http://www.chiesa.espressonline.it/dettaglio.jsp?id=32905&eng=y"]http://www.chiesa.espressonline.it/dettagl...?id=32905&eng=y[/url]
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I've read that article before Fides. It simply states that it is likely that Marini will be leaving. Again I haven't seen any article stating that there is a new director. Has anyone?

[quote name='Fides_et_Ratio' date='Aug 23 2005, 09:07 AM']hot stuff, are you just playing devil's advocate, or do you really think the Holy Father wanted the entire Liturgy to unfold as played at WYD?

I think it more impossible to buy the notion that he not only "approved" (which I don't think he did in any formal fashion) the liturgy, but wanted it that way when you consider his past liturgical stances. Or are you aware of some giant interior conversion he's had since his election?
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Perhaps its a bit devil's advocate. But it is more to prove a point. Everyone has hailed the new papacy as a victory for orthodoxy. Yet the guitars are still there and no one wants to acknowledge the possibility that they are there for a reason. Perhaps guitars are not the evil tools that should be burned. Perhaps guitars can be effectively used to celebrate the liturgy.

As far as the interior conversion of the Pope, Prior to being the Prefect of the CDF, he did not have the reputation that he has today. In fact he had the reputation for being much more moderate. When he became the head of the CDF he took an orthodox approach to defending the faith.

[Fides_et_Ratio]

I have not been hailing for the burning of guitars... My main issue is when we sing specifically Protestant songs at Mass, or sing songs that focus more on us and on our feelings rather than of Heavenly things. My issue is more with the subject matter of music, not necessarily the tune.

And my only other point on the matter would be to remind us that he's only been the Pope for a few months. The sweeping liturgical crackdown so many would like to see is not going to be instantaneous, because it can't be.

As to Marini, I have not heard for sure... but it seems that many have been discussing it. So perhaps that was a bad assumption to make on my part... but again, it is still early in the papacy of Pope Benedict XVI to be making too many assumptions or demands.
I also found [url="http://news.webindia123.com/news/showdetails.asp?id=89706&cat=World"]this [/url]article which says pretty much the same thing in regards to Marini.

[Jaime]

The guitar burning certainly wasn't in reference to you but to Future Nun. Neither are my comments directed simply at you Fides. I'm sorry if it came off that way. It wasn't intended to.

But my point stands and some folks do not want to acknowledge it. Why is it impossible for some folks around here to believe that it is possible that the Holy Father does not have a problem with guitars at mass?

[Semperviva]

[quote name='son_of_angels' date='Aug 22 2005, 09:49 PM']I don't care what people say, I think the setting of the Mass was absolutely fabulous.  I don't think it is so important the STYLE of music as the content.  I will say I absolutely objected to the song "Let us break bread together."  It is simply not suited for a Catholic Eucharist.

But, come on people, didgeridoo's accompanying Gregorian Chant and Latin, what could be cooler than that?  A sitar accompanying a setting of Credo I, that was just awesome.

Ah, if only the Latin was pronounced correctly (Classical Languages major shakes his head).  Even choirs in Arkansas can get that right.

I think the important think here is to be able to imagine traditional elements of liturgy presented in a fresh way, not so it is "acceptable to young people" but in order to give new power to the Word of God.  Think about it, when was the last time YOU saw a good traditional Eucharistic service like the Vigil take place.  I thought it was wonderful. I can only imagine what 800,000 people chanting a Tantum Ergo must have been like (or however many knew the chant).
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i agree wholeheartedly

at first i was like um what the heck when the guy from argentina started his juggling thing up there but then it amazed me because it showed how all things must be done for the glory of God and that this was his gift of self to God on the altar... giving back to God an offering of himself... anyways... the vigil was differnet but completely reverent- i am really saddenned that ppl have to defend the vigil... i mean for benediction we sang tantum ergo and actually had to respond with the traditional "omne delectamentum... " having all sweetness within it... why are ppl complaining ??? when has this happened at WYD ever??!!!!!!!! hellO! the pope is obviosly NOT going to turn all these kids off by sudden complete latin immersion : (which i woulden't mind all that much)... its a slow process and he's smarter than scaring them all into orthodoxy... its a slow process of love, change and true conversion

[inDEED]

Oh brother...here we go again...

I'm only going to post once in this thread...if you feel my comments are directed @ you, take them for what they're worth...

Electric guitars, drums, percussion instruments, trumpets, horns, heck - even a freakin' KAZOO can be used as tools to worship in Mass. Period.

hot stuff, Ryan, and those who are courageous enough to defend the choices of our Priests, Bishops, and even POPE in regards to the liturgy, I commend you...And, to those of you who ridicule the manner in which our passionate musicians devote their lives in serving the Church as music ministers @ our Masses...give it up...your "fight" is not worth fighting. Spend your time in prayer, evangelization, WHATEVER else that can aid to the glory of His kingdom - not condemning such choices on a freakin' message board...

I'm out of this ridiculous debate...Gotta tell you - threads like these are what made me step down as a mod...if this is the direction that the Phatmass boards continue to take, growth simply cannot occur...

[Birgitta Noel]

Thank you.