Sojourner Posted September 9, 2005 Posted September 9, 2005 [quote name='Carrie' date='Sep 9 2005, 01:46 PM']So then why is it immoral for a newlywed couple [b]with the right intent[/b] to use NFP? I don't believe it is immoral if the newlywed couple has valid reasons for it. (this question isn't directed at you Abby, but in general to those who say NFP for newlyweds is immoral). [right][snapback]717097[/snapback][/right] [/quote] I don't think anyone here (and I'm sure I'll be corrected if I'm wrong) disputes that grave reasons to postpone pregnancy can arise for any married couple -- even for newlyweds. The question at hand was whether or not it is appropriate to [b]enter into [/b]a marriage knowing that you're not ready to have children, particularly since one of the chief ends of marriage is to produce children. If you have grave reasons to postpone pregnancy, why should those grave reasons not also postpone marriage? Just to clarify.
Don John of Austria Posted September 9, 2005 Posted September 9, 2005 [quote name='Nicole8223' date='Sep 9 2005, 01:52 PM']I think that any of the reasons that were already mentioned (look back to Carrie's post back a few pages) as acceptable by the church apply to newlyweds. There is nothing that says those reasons are only valid after you are no longer a newlywed. The reasons presented do not convince me. [right][snapback]717106[/snapback][/right] [/quote] None of those are reasons, they are catagories, certianly if you are so ill that you shouldn't have a child then you shouldn't be getting married, if you are so impovrished that you shouldn't have a child then you shouldn't be getting married, etc You give me grave reason that is grave enough for one and noth the other and actual rasn in a actual situation, or simply concede the point as you have no point.
Carrie Posted September 9, 2005 Posted September 9, 2005 [quote name='Don John of Austria' date='Sep 9 2005, 03:46 PM']I don't believe anyone here did that, but if the discussion of moral theology offends or scandalizes you then you are certianly welcome not to read the thread or participate in the discussion. It is certianly not improper for anyone here to discuss the moral implications of NFP and just for the record all Catholics are members of the Hierarchy, the laity are just lowly members of it.[/quote] Sure they did: [quote](argent_paladin) If you are practicing NFP, it means you are not ready to have children immediately. If you are not ready to have children immediately, you are not ready to get married[/quote] [quote](homeschoolmom) No one should get married with the idea that they are already in a grave enough situation as to necessitate avoiding children. [/quote] [quote](toledo_jesus) it is immoral for a newlywed couple to use NFP.[/quote] [quote](argent_paladin) I say that it is not a proper to intend to practice NFP for an indefinite period begining on the wedding night, except for life-threatening reasons.[/quote] [quote](argent_paladin) Don't get married until you can support a family[/quote] [quote](argent_paladin) It is still unbelievable to me that I have to defend the truth that people who have discerned that they are not ready to have children should not get married. [/quote] [quote](toledo_jesus) It seems silly to me to get married before you are completely ready to have kids, and therefore planning to use NFP for a contraceptive purpose is wrong[/quote] I could keep going but I won't. Those are enough examples of blanket statements for now. Sorry, I'm a bit annoyed.
Nicole8223 Posted September 9, 2005 Posted September 9, 2005 If you believe I have no point, that is your opinion. I disagree. If a couple is called to marriage, and they seek spiritual direction, and decideds to begin NFP immediately, while relying on God over anything else, they are not acting immorally. I do not have to share my reasons with anyone....I am making a point anyway. You can recognize it or ignore it, but it is a point nonetheless.
Carrie Posted September 9, 2005 Posted September 9, 2005 Why don't my quotes work right? edited to add: Nevermind, I fixed it.
Don John of Austria Posted September 9, 2005 Posted September 9, 2005 [quote name='Carrie' date='Sep 9 2005, 01:59 PM'] Sure they did: [QUOTE(toledo_jesus) it is immoral for a newlywed couple to use NFP.[/QUOTE] I could keep going but I won't. Those are enough examples of blanket statements for now. Sorry, I'm a bit annoyed. [right][snapback]717113[/snapback][/right] [/quote] None of those are statments pretending to be " excathadra" Norseman wass way out of line with his comment. Those are contentions is a debate, no one here claimed to have the infallable athority of the Pope. No one here even hinted at that authority, however and what seems to be offending you and others is that all of those people are interpreting the Magisterium in a way you do not like. And that of course is why argent intered it as a debate.
Don John of Austria Posted September 9, 2005 Posted September 9, 2005 [quote name='Nicole8223' date='Sep 9 2005, 02:00 PM']If you believe I have no point, that is your opinion. I disagree. If a couple is called to marriage, and they seek spiritual direction, and decideds to begin NFP immediately, while relying on God over anything else, they are not acting immorally. I do not have to share my reasons with anyone....I am making a point anyway. You can recognize it or ignore it, but it is a point nonetheless. [right][snapback]717114[/snapback][/right] [/quote] No you have a contention, you have made no points at all to support your contention.
Nicole8223 Posted September 9, 2005 Posted September 9, 2005 But opinion is one thing...fact is another. Some people present their opinion and place it on other people's lives....that's called judgement.
Carrie Posted September 9, 2005 Posted September 9, 2005 [quote name='Don John of Austria' date='Sep 9 2005, 04:03 PM'] No one here even hinted at that authority, however and what seems to be offending you and others is that all of those people are interpreting the Magisterium in a way you do not like. And that of course is why argent intered it as a debate. [right][snapback]717117[/snapback][/right] [/quote] I have no problem with someone interpreting the Magisterium in a way I don't like. That is up to them. What I don't like are the blanket statements and judgements made about others without knowing a situation. I'm not personally affected by this situation yet, but if was in the same place as Birgitta, kateri, Nicole, etc., I would be offended as well.
Sojourner Posted September 9, 2005 Posted September 9, 2005 [quote name='Nicole8223' date='Sep 9 2005, 02:05 PM']But opinion is one thing...fact is another. Some people present their opinion and place it on other people's lives....that's called judgement. [right][snapback]717121[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Has anyone said that you personally are in error? I haven't seen that. What you're seeing are opinions you don't agree with.
Carrie Posted September 9, 2005 Posted September 9, 2005 [quote name='Sojourner' date='Sep 9 2005, 04:07 PM']Has anyone said that you personally are in error? I haven't seen that. What you're seeing are opinions you don't agree with. [right][snapback]717124[/snapback][/right] [/quote] By the blanket statements I quoted above, where lots of people are saying "NFP is immoral for newlyweds" people [b]are[/b] saying that she will be in error unless she has a life threatening situation.
Nicole8223 Posted September 9, 2005 Posted September 9, 2005 [quote name='Carrie' date='Sep 9 2005, 03:08 PM']By the blanket statements I quoted above, where lots of people are saying "NFP is immoral for newlyweds" people [b]are[/b] saying that she will be in error unless she has a life threatening situation. [right][snapback]717126[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Exactly... I made a post about my situation and the next post said that no one should get married if they do not plan on having children immediately. I would say that is a judgement directed towards me.
Don John of Austria Posted September 9, 2005 Posted September 9, 2005 (edited) [quote name='Nicole8223' date='Sep 9 2005, 02:05 PM']But opinion is one thing...fact is another. Some people present their opinion and place it on other people's lives....that's called judgement. [right][snapback]717121[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Yes it is a judgement of morality, it is no differant than if I said " It is morally acceptable to kill abortionist without warning" that is a moral contention, then I would make an arguement as to why I believed it was a correct moral contention. If you disagreed with it you would make a counter point to my arguement and we would continue in that manner until we could either come to an agreement or until we could isolate the cause of our disagreement and then analyze it. However while many of us have put forth reasons why we believe the statement [i]It is morally objectionable for someone to get married with the intention of immediatly using NFP to prevent pregnancy [/i]( sorry guys if you don't like the verbage but that seems to be a good enough summary) those in opposition have given no such reasons, nor any example of why it might be acceptable. This is a debate on moral theology that is the nature of such debates. Edited September 9, 2005 by Don John of Austria
Don John of Austria Posted September 9, 2005 Posted September 9, 2005 [quote name='Nicole8223' date='Sep 9 2005, 02:10 PM']Exactly... I made a post about my situation and the next post said that no one should get married if they do not plan on having children immediately. I would say that is a judgement directed towards me. [right][snapback]717129[/snapback][/right] [/quote] you might say it is butthat does not make it so, it is moral judgement, nothing more and nothing less, if you find yourself outside that moral judgement than at least you should look back and see why that is so, do you have any reason for your position or do you just want your position to be right.
Sojourner Posted September 9, 2005 Posted September 9, 2005 [quote name='Don John of Austria' date='Sep 9 2005, 02:17 PM']you might say it is butthat does not make it so, it is moral judgement, nothing more and nothing less, if you find yourself outside that moral judgement than at least you should look back and see why that is so, do you have any reason for your position or do you just want your position to be right. [right][snapback]717135[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Yep. What he said.
Nicole8223 Posted September 9, 2005 Posted September 9, 2005 The reasons that are acceptable have been stated a few times... The Church teaches NFP, and it is a requirement in my diocese BEFORE you get married, not after the newlywed period, which is not a predetermined amount of time anyway. According to the first post, NFP should ONLY be used if someone have already been pregnant, and never before. That is not the point of NFP. No where does it say that. If someone believes this, that is fine, but it is not fair to say all who disagree are being immoral. I stated that I disagree because we cannot judge anothers situation, and therefore cannot make a blanket statement.
Don John of Austria Posted September 9, 2005 Posted September 9, 2005 (edited) [quote name='Nicole8223' date='Sep 9 2005, 02:19 PM']The reasons that are acceptable have been stated a few times... The Church teaches NFP, and it is a requirement in my diocese BEFORE you get married, not after the newlywed period, which is not a predetermined amount of time anyway. According to the first post, NFP should ONLY be used if someone have already been pregnant, and never before. That is not the point of NFP. No where does it say that. If someone believes this, that is fine, but it is not fair to say all who disagree are being immoral. I stated that I disagree because we cannot judge anothers situation, and therefore cannot make a blanket statement. [right][snapback]717138[/snapback][/right] [/quote] well then you are a moral relativist and not a Catholic. Catholics can certanly make blanket statements about morality. Edit: I hope you are not only going on the first post, there has been quite a bit of development of the Idea since then Edited September 9, 2005 by Don John of Austria
Sojourner Posted September 9, 2005 Posted September 9, 2005 [quote name='Nicole8223' date='Sep 9 2005, 02:19 PM']The reasons that are acceptable have been stated a few times... The Church teaches NFP, and it is a requirement in my diocese BEFORE you get married, not after the newlywed period, which is not a predetermined amount of time anyway. According to the first post, NFP should ONLY be used if someone have already been pregnant, and never before. That is not the point of NFP. No where does it say that. If someone believes this, that is fine, but it is not fair to say all who disagree are being immoral. I stated that I disagree because we cannot judge anothers situation, and therefore cannot make a blanket statement. [right][snapback]717138[/snapback][/right] [/quote] NO ONE has said (to the best of my knowledge) that you can't practice NFP as a newlywed, given that your situation meets certain grave conditions. The question is about whether or not you can ENTER INTO MARRIAGE knowing that you plan to not have children for a given amount of time.
Birgitta Noel Posted September 9, 2005 Posted September 9, 2005 I am so angry right now that if my laptop were backed up I would throw it out the window after beating on my desk here at work. Then after I jumped out the window after it I would probably curl up in a ball and sob. But since I am at work and have to act like an adult I will excercise some self control and I will refrain from commenting. But you all are ripping my very soul out. Thank you.
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