NFP for Newlyweds

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='JeffCR07' date='Sep 9 2005, 07:53 AM']Its Jeff, lol, and in no way is my argument reducible to an argument-by-sentimentality.

If a grave reason exists that would justify the prevention of pregnancy, and that grave reason might very well persist for an unforseeable amount of time, there is, quite simply, no reason for the couple [i]not[/i] to get married.

Simply because a grave reason which would justify the [i]postponing[/i] (a much more accurately descriptive word than "prevention") of pregnancy exists, that does not mean that the marriage of the couple would not be oriented towards procreation.

As such, there is no reason for the couple not to marry.

Now, if the grave reason will most likely be resolved in the near/forseeable future, then it follows that the couple may want to postpone the marriage until such a time. However, even in a situation like this, there would be nothing intrinsically wrong with the couple getting married before that, it would simply be a questionable prudential judgement.

In Christ,

Jeff
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I know it's jeff I was just really tired, 14 hour at work can get your brain tired, even mine :

And you didn't answer my question, can you give me a concrete example of a reason that would prevent be ligit to prevent pregnancy but not marraige. And I do not use postpone pregnancy for a reason, you are not postponing pregnancy from [i]that [/i]act you are preventing pregnancy from that act. NFP does not allow you to go back and have children from a previous sexual encounter or to have a sexual encounter at a time when you did not infact have one in the past so the pregnancy which might have resulted from said encounter is prevented, not postponed. The Child which would result from sex on tuesday the 4th is not the child that would result from wednesday the 18th, that pregnancy has been prevented, forever.

[Carrie]

I've read through the entire thread and all I can say is wow. Just wow.


I'm late in joining in the discussion and don't have much to add, but I will say that I am in complete agreement with Jeff, Birgitta, and kateri.

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='Carrie' date='Sep 9 2005, 09:13 AM']I've read through the entire thread and all I can say is wow.  Just wow.
I'm late in joining in the discussion and don't have much to add, but I will say that I am in complete agreement with Jeff, Birgitta, and kateri.
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So can you put forward a grave reason which would be reasonable to prevent pregnancy but not to postpone or prevent the marriage.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Carrie' date='Sep 9 2005, 10:13 AM']I've read through the entire thread and all I can say is wow.  Just wow.
I'm late in joining in the discussion and don't have much to add, but I will say that I am in complete agreement with Jeff, Birgitta, and kateri.
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Absolutely.
and although my post was studiously ignored I'll repeat it.
I see nothing wrong with using NFP during the first year of marriage to postpone pregnancy.
Its hard enough to adjust to living with another person 24/7 without adding raging hormones to the mix.
Give the marriage a chance before you add the responsibilty of another human life to the mix.
And unless you are married already, please do not presume to know how difficult that first year can be.

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='Sep 9 2005, 10:12 AM']Absolutely.
and although my post was studiously ignored I'll repeat it.
I see nothing wrong with using NFP during the first year of marriage to postpone pregnancy.
Its hard enough to adjust to living with another person 24/7 without adding raging hormones to the mix.
Give the marriage a chance before you add the responsibilty of another human life to the mix.
And unless you are married already, please do not presume to know how difficult that first year can be.
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I am already maried and adjusting to married life is hardly a "Grave reason". This has to be grave the same kind of stringent requirment needed to put someone to death. learning to live with your spouse does not apply.

[Brother Adam]

Both of you are merely expressing opinions. Ultimately neither are right or wrong until the Church says so :

Though I agree with DJ that adjusting is not a grave enough reason. But that's just my opinion.

Edited September 9, 2005 by Brother Adam

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='Brother Adam' date='Sep 9 2005, 10:17 AM']Both of you are merely expressing opinions. Ultimately neither are right or wrong until the Church says so :
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well the church has certianly made clear overthe century's that living with ones spouse does not qualify as grave.


and thank you for your agreement.

Edited September 9, 2005 by Don John of Austria

[Carrie]

[quote name='Don John of Austria' date='Sep 9 2005, 12:11 PM']So can you put forward a grave reason which would be reasonable to prevent pregnancy but not to postpone or prevent the marriage.
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Grave reasons can be financial, psychological, medical, or otherwise.

I'm not going to sit here and play "what if this scenario occured" games.

The Church accepts the use of NFP. Nowhere does it state that NFP cannot be used by newlyweds. End of story.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='Sep 9 2005, 11:12 AM']Absolutely.
and although my post was studiously ignored I'll repeat it.
I see nothing wrong with using NFP during the first year of marriage to postpone pregnancy.
Its hard enough to adjust to living with another person 24/7 without adding raging hormones to the mix.
Give the marriage a chance before you add the responsibilty of another human life to the mix.
And unless you are married already, please do not presume to know how difficult that first year can be.
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I'm still deciding whether I would think it's a good reason or not, but I won't presume to know how tough it can be. I would guess that it's tougher for some than for others, though.

What I have noticed is that someone in this thread is arguing that the 9 months gestation time is enough "couple time"...just wanted to point out that that could hardly be considered "couple time"...first, at the point of conception, there's already a family there, with the stress, cares, health, and financial planning for at least 3 people involved. I hardly think that a pregnant couple enjoys that much time together that isn't focused on the pregnancy or at least has the pregnancy there. Even in the most intimate moments (during which, hopefully, there is no financial planning going on), there are three (or more in the case of twins, triples, etc.) people involved. All of us who were on the NFP phorum know very well the impact that pregnancy can have even on the most personal acts of a couple, the sex life.

I'm undecided on the whole issue...just wanted to point out that little thing, which is hardly even relevant.

[Sojourner]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='Sep 9 2005, 10:12 AM']And unless you are married already, please do not presume to know how difficult that first year can be.
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Just because I'm not married doesn't mean I don't have a pretty decent idea of how difficult a close, intimate relationship can be. There are other ways of gaining knowledge and wisdom (although I'm not claiming to have that, necessarily) than through direct experience.

[popestpiusx]

I agree with those who hold that NFP may not be legitimately used that early in the marriage (unless of course some grave reason happens to come up post-wedding). If one is not ready to have children, one is not ready to be married.

As far as the adjustment issue is concerned, I think that is overrated. What better way to adjust (read: to get over oneself and live for another) than to have children right away.

[Nicole8223]

I'm getting married next August, and we don't plan on havign children right away. Not because we aren't open to life, because NFP is open to life, but because we don't think it would be prudent. We both feel called to marraige and we both consult very orthodox spiritual directors who have given us a green light.

So according to most of you, we're being immoral. Well, I think you're being a bit judgemental.

NFP is perfect for us. We of course will have a wonderful honeymoon where we won't even think of NFP, and maybe some time after, but for the first year, we plan on practicing NFP. NFP is NATURAL, and it is NOT immoral if used correctly, and from all I have read and seen from the Church on the matter, we are going to use it correctly. If God wants us to have a child in our first year of marraige, then we'll be delighted, but we aren't going to throw caution to the wind when we know it isn't the prudent thing to do.

[popestpiusx]

[quote name='popestpiusx' date='Sep 9 2005, 12:11 PM']  If one is not ready to have children, one is not ready to be married.
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[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Sojourner' date='Sep 9 2005, 11:47 AM']Just because I'm not married doesn't mean I don't have a pretty decent idea of how difficult a close, intimate relationship can be. There are other ways of gaining knowledge and wisdom (although I'm not claiming to have that, necessarily) than through direct experience.
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Its the difference between learning everything you can about being pregnant, and actually being pregnant.

Edited September 9, 2005 by cmotherofpirl

[Nicole8223]

[quote]If one is not ready to have children, one is not ready to be married.[/quote]


Ummm...hi....do you know me? How DARE you tell me that....funny, all the priests I've talked to (orthodox priests) have had no objection. Yet, some stranger online thinks they know more and they can tell me I am not ready to get married.

You've hit a chord in me....this is just wrong. People gotta get over themselves and STOP POINTING FINGERS.

Edited September 9, 2005 by Nicole8223

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Carrie' date='Sep 9 2005, 11:18 AM']Grave reasons can be financial, psychological, medical, or otherwise.

I'm not going to sit here and play "what if this scenario occured" games.

The Church accepts the use of NFP.  Nowhere does it state that NFP cannot be used by newlyweds.  End of story.
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Amen

[Carrie]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='Sep 9 2005, 01:32 PM']Its the difference between learning everything you can about being pregnant, and actually being pregnant.
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Agreed.

[Nicole8223]

[quote](Carrie @ Sep 9 2005, 11:18 AM)
Grave reasons can be financial, psychological, medical, or otherwise.

I'm not going to sit here and play "what if this scenario occured" games.

The Church accepts the use of NFP.  Nowhere does it state that NFP cannot be used by newlyweds.  End of story.[/quote]


[quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='Sep 9 2005, 12:33 PM']Amen
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Thanks! This is my point. NO ONE has the right to say, "You'r reason isn't grave enough so you're being immoral." It's not our job to do that....if I want someone to do that, I go to my spiritual director and see what he thinks.

[Carrie]

[quote name='Nicole8223' date='Sep 9 2005, 01:36 PM']Thanks!  This is my point.  NO ONE has the right to say, "You'r reason isn't grave enough so you're being immoral."  It's not our job to do that....if I want someone to do that, I go to my spiritual director and see what he thinks.
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I said exactly that in the other NFP thread.

The best way to determine whether or not your reason for using NFP is valid or not is to speak to your priest. It's as simple as that.

Nicole, don't get too worked up. I think heeding the advice of your spiritual director over internet strangers is wise.

[Nicole8223]

Thanks Carrie....I just took it personally...I don't know why. But people get arrogant and start saying things that they have no right to say. I should just pray for myself to be humble.