popestpiusx Posted September 9, 2005 Share Posted September 9, 2005 I agree with those who hold that NFP may not be legitimately used that early in the marriage (unless of course some grave reason happens to come up post-wedding). If one is not ready to have children, one is not ready to be married. As far as the adjustment issue is concerned, I think that is overrated. What better way to adjust (read: to get over oneself and live for another) than to have children right away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicole8223 Posted September 9, 2005 Share Posted September 9, 2005 I'm getting married next August, and we don't plan on havign children right away. Not because we aren't open to life, because NFP is open to life, but because we don't think it would be prudent. We both feel called to marraige and we both consult very orthodox spiritual directors who have given us a green light. So according to most of you, we're being immoral. Well, I think you're being a bit judgemental. NFP is perfect for us. We of course will have a wonderful honeymoon where we won't even think of NFP, and maybe some time after, but for the first year, we plan on practicing NFP. NFP is NATURAL, and it is NOT immoral if used correctly, and from all I have read and seen from the Church on the matter, we are going to use it correctly. If God wants us to have a child in our first year of marraige, then we'll be delighted, but we aren't going to throw caution to the wind when we know it isn't the prudent thing to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
popestpiusx Posted September 9, 2005 Share Posted September 9, 2005 [quote name='popestpiusx' date='Sep 9 2005, 12:11 PM'] If one is not ready to have children, one is not ready to be married. [right][snapback]716907[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmotherofpirl Posted September 9, 2005 Share Posted September 9, 2005 (edited) [quote name='Sojourner' date='Sep 9 2005, 11:47 AM']Just because I'm not married doesn't mean I don't have a pretty decent idea of how difficult a close, intimate relationship can be. There are other ways of gaining knowledge and wisdom (although I'm not claiming to have that, necessarily) than through direct experience. [right][snapback]716887[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Its the difference between learning everything you can about being pregnant, and actually being pregnant. Edited September 9, 2005 by cmotherofpirl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicole8223 Posted September 9, 2005 Share Posted September 9, 2005 (edited) [quote]If one is not ready to have children, one is not ready to be married.[/quote] Ummm...hi....do you know me? How DARE you tell me that....funny, all the priests I've talked to (orthodox priests) have had no objection. Yet, some stranger online thinks they know more and they can tell me I am not ready to get married. You've hit a chord in me....this is just wrong. People gotta get over themselves and STOP POINTING FINGERS. Edited September 9, 2005 by Nicole8223 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmotherofpirl Posted September 9, 2005 Share Posted September 9, 2005 [quote name='Carrie' date='Sep 9 2005, 11:18 AM']Grave reasons can be financial, psychological, medical, or otherwise. I'm not going to sit here and play "what if this scenario occured" games. The Church accepts the use of NFP. Nowhere does it state that NFP cannot be used by newlyweds. End of story. [right][snapback]716871[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Amen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carrie Posted September 9, 2005 Share Posted September 9, 2005 [quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='Sep 9 2005, 01:32 PM']Its the difference between learning everything you can about being pregnant, and actually being pregnant. [right][snapback]716934[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Agreed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicole8223 Posted September 9, 2005 Share Posted September 9, 2005 [quote](Carrie @ Sep 9 2005, 11:18 AM) Grave reasons can be financial, psychological, medical, or otherwise. I'm not going to sit here and play "what if this scenario occured" games. The Church accepts the use of NFP. Nowhere does it state that NFP cannot be used by newlyweds. End of story.[/quote] [quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='Sep 9 2005, 12:33 PM']Amen [right][snapback]716938[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Thanks! This is my point. NO ONE has the right to say, "You'r reason isn't grave enough so you're being immoral." It's not our job to do that....if I want someone to do that, I go to my spiritual director and see what he thinks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carrie Posted September 9, 2005 Share Posted September 9, 2005 [quote name='Nicole8223' date='Sep 9 2005, 01:36 PM']Thanks! This is my point. NO ONE has the right to say, "You'r reason isn't grave enough so you're being immoral." It's not our job to do that....if I want someone to do that, I go to my spiritual director and see what he thinks. [right][snapback]716941[/snapback][/right] [/quote] I said exactly that in the other NFP thread. The best way to determine whether or not your reason for using NFP is valid or not is to speak to your priest. It's as simple as that. Nicole, don't get too worked up. I think heeding the advice of your spiritual director over internet strangers is wise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicole8223 Posted September 9, 2005 Share Posted September 9, 2005 Thanks Carrie....I just took it personally...I don't know why. But people get arrogant and start saying things that they have no right to say. I should just pray for myself to be humble. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thy Geekdom Come Posted September 9, 2005 Share Posted September 9, 2005 [quote name='Nicole8223' date='Sep 9 2005, 12:33 PM']Ummm...hi....do you know me? How DARE you tell me that....funny, all the priests I've talked to (orthodox priests) have had no objection. Yet, some stranger online thinks they know more and they can tell me I am not ready to get married. You've hit a chord in me....this is just wrong. People gotta get over themselves and STOP POINTING FINGERS. [right][snapback]716937[/snapback][/right] [/quote] I agree with you. Debating a subject is one thing...making blanket statements on people's moral integrity is quite another. We should hold that one should desire children and be open to that life in order to get married...but being "ready," especially in a financial sense, is damning the vast majority of us to living single lives of celibacy when we're called to marriage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toledo_jesus Posted September 9, 2005 Share Posted September 9, 2005 [quote name='Benedict' date='Sep 8 2005, 11:04 PM'] I refuse to allow others to define terms for me. But I say to the unmarried and to the widows: It is good for them if they so continue, even as I. But if they do not contain themselves, let them marry. For it is better to marry than to be burnt. 1 Corinthians 7:8-9 Indefinite delay is not expected. [right][snapback]716508[/snapback][/right] [/quote] oh piffle. others will always define your terms, until you write the dictionary. "It is good for them to continue, even as I." It is a good thing to remain celibate, like me. "But if they do not contain themselves, let them marry." But if you have to have sex and can't be celibate, then marry. "For it is better to marry than to be burnt." At least then you won't be fornicating. So what did Paul add to this conversation? He says nothing of whether you should regulate births from the moment you are married. As for indefinite delay, how many people do you know who practice birth control in their marriage with the idea that they will do it until they are ready to have a kid? Indefinite delay is irrelevant. Any delay is wrong, except in the case of unforeseen medical, psychological, or economical reasons. Key word is unforeseen. If you know your husband can't hold down a job, shouldn't you wait until he has a steady one to get married? Yes. If your husband loses his job after marriage, are you in error? Why, no! In that case, some NFP might be alright. But to say from the start, "we're not ready to have kids yet. When we're ready then we'll stop using NFP," is blatantly contraceptive in mentality. You should refrain from marriage until you are ready to have kids. There is a bottom line here, and the bottom line is that NFP can be used as a contraceptive. No babies on purpose=contraception. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kateri05 Posted September 9, 2005 Share Posted September 9, 2005 [quote name='Nicole8223' date='Sep 9 2005, 10:42 AM']Thanks Carrie....I just took it personally...I don't know why. But people get arrogant and start saying things that they have no right to say. I should just pray for myself to be humble. [right][snapback]716953[/snapback][/right] [/quote] 800% in agreement. i also took it personally, as did Birgitta, for quite a good reason: they are directly calling our faithfulness to CHrist and His Church into question. which makes people a little touchy luckily, jeff and cmom came in to save the day (like mighty mouse! ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toledo_jesus Posted September 9, 2005 Share Posted September 9, 2005 [quote name='Raphael' date='Sep 9 2005, 12:46 PM']I agree with you. Debating a subject is one thing...making blanket statements on people's moral integrity is quite another. We should hold that one should desire children and be open to that life in order to get married...but being "ready," especially in a financial sense, is damning the vast majority of us to living single lives of celibacy when we're called to marriage. [right][snapback]716961[/snapback][/right] [/quote] damnation is eternal, waiting until you have a steady job and can afford things without overmuch difficulty will delay your calling by perhaps 5-10 years. Look, if you (not you in particular) want to make a go of it and so does she, then go for it. Nobody is stopping you and a priest will probably be happy you aren't cohabitating. It will be difficult is all. Children will make it more so. It makes good sense to wait longer for marriage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
popestpiusx Posted September 9, 2005 Share Posted September 9, 2005 [quote name='Raphael' date='Sep 9 2005, 12:46 PM']I agree with you. Debating a subject is one thing...making blanket statements on people's moral integrity is quite another. We should hold that one should desire children and be open to that life in order to get married...but being "ready," especially in a financial sense, is damning the vast majority of us to living single lives of celibacy when we're called to marriage. [right][snapback]716961[/snapback][/right] [/quote] First, I made no [b]blanket[/b] statement on anyone’s moral integrity. I stand by my statement. Why? It is called consistency. If I am defending the position that starting a marriage off with an indefinite commitment to avoid having children is wrong, why would I change my position when it comes to application. If what we are discussing is merely academic (without practical application), then it is a waste of time. Second, I agree that "We should hold that one should desire children and be open to that life in order to get married". How is it possible to desire children and yet desire to not have them at the same time? How is it possible to go into a marriage (of which the primary end is the begetting of children) and from the beginning decide not have children yet. Postpone marriage until you are ready so that you may enter the bonds of marriage ready for everything marriage entails, or as ready as one may be. As far as being ready, no one is actually ready, financially or otherwise. Why postpone having children? What would you be basing your 'readiness' on? If you have no children you have no way of knowing whether you are ready or not. If we mean 'readiness' in general, as a state of maturity or some such thing then I will simply repeat what I have said before, if you are not ready to have kids, then you are not ready to get married. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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