Socrates Posted September 17, 2005 Share Posted September 17, 2005 [quote name='skellmeyer' date='Sep 17 2005, 03:34 PM']But we are baptized in order to be crucified. The bishops forgot about that. Like Peter, they tried to tell us little images of Christ that we didn't have to go to Golgatha to suffer and die - they would make some nice tents for us right here and everything would be alright. So, instead of being transfigured, we were just deformed. [right][snapback]727219[/snapback][/right] [/quote] What, sir, is this referring to? Context please. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaime Posted September 17, 2005 Share Posted September 17, 2005 [quote name='toledo_jesus' date='Sep 17 2005, 04:37 PM']So nobody else realized it for thousands of years? I find that hard to believe. Adolescence is not present in some cultures today. It seems that the more industrial a culture becomes, the longer it takes to become a man. [right][snapback]727374[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Hmm what else wasn't realized for thousands of years The earth revolving around the sun The earth is actually round and not flat Leeches don't do much for curing what ails you Care for few more examples or will that do? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaime Posted September 17, 2005 Share Posted September 17, 2005 [quote name='toledo_jesus' date='Sep 17 2005, 04:37 PM']t seems that the more industrial a culture becomes, the longer it takes to become a man. [right][snapback]727374[/snapback][/right] [/quote] I will agree that the more industrialized a culture, the less rites of passage there are to adulthood. In our culture we have pretty much abolished rites of passage and I believe that is to our detriment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aloysius Posted September 17, 2005 Share Posted September 17, 2005 it doesn't matter to me one way or another if it had sinister intentions or not, the fact is that this prolonged childhood has devestating results on family and reproduction. young young marriage being common in a culture produces a culture of life and strong pillar-like families. prolonged childhood when our bodies are already ready for sex produces extra-marital sexual activity. it isn't rocket science. it's obvious biologically and historically. all the rhetoric about capitalism is clouding the issue. it's a clear fact of the natural law that if we are to be married before we have sex then once we have a bunch of hormones telling us to have sex then it's just about time for us to be getting married (generally add a few years for some more developement, but as soon as possible is the best chance) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aloysius Posted September 17, 2005 Share Posted September 17, 2005 [quote name='hot stuff' date='Sep 17 2005, 06:31 PM']Hmm what else wasn't realized for thousands of years The earth revolving around the sun The earth is actually round and not flat Leeches don't do much for curing what ails you Care for few more examples or will that do? [right][snapback]727484[/snapback][/right] [/quote] those are completely different, those are objective facts of the science of the world around us. this is something about us ourselves, an ACTION that affects our entire civilization. if for thousands of years we married young and it worked and they had good families and it was completely healthy for them, how can it all the sudden be discovered to have been unhealthy? unless you are prepared to label most marriages throughout history as psychologically unhealthy... which would be quite an extreme statement and I don't believe St. Joseph would be too pleased about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaime Posted September 17, 2005 Share Posted September 17, 2005 (edited) Ok I'm officially sick to death of the whole "St Joseph did it" argument.What is that supposed to do, make me go hide under the bed? From a psychological and psychophysiological standpoint, marriages of early teens and preteens is unhealthy. To clarify, putting children in adult situations is unhealthy. It has been and will continue to be. Including the marriages that took place during the birth of Jesus. (Waiting for lightning to strike... no? I'll continue then) There are lots of things that we do and there are even more things that our ancestors did that were physically, psychologically and spiritually unhealthy. But that does not mean that cultures and civilizations don't advance. It doesn't mean that we are incapable of great and wondrous things. It simply means that we have the advantage now of knowing things that were not known then. "Well my granddad didn't need no stinking horseless carriage" Its essentially the same argument. [quote]those are completely different, those are objective facts of the science of the world around us[/quote] The physiological and psychophysiological changes that occur are also facts of science. Its not opinion, its not a conspiracy. Its just the facts. Accept them, or don't. But contrary opinions are just that. opinions Edited September 17, 2005 by jaime Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaime Posted September 17, 2005 Share Posted September 17, 2005 (edited) By the way all of this is simply fodder taking away from the actual debate topic. What this guy did was against the law. No one has provided an argument against that because its a fact. What he did, and what the parents did, is wrong. [quote]To clarify, putting children in adult situations is unhealthy.[/quote] that would better read "making children into adults is unhealthy" Edited September 17, 2005 by jaime Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aloysius Posted September 17, 2005 Share Posted September 17, 2005 I really just can't accept that philosophically, though I know we as a society can advance in areas. to say that all historical marriages were unhealthy when they produced a much more stable civilization than our own is ludicrus. our civilization now is on much more shaky grounds than medieval civilization. anyway, I focus more on the historical aspects because I don't claim to know alot about psychology, nor do I want to know alot about psychology. but the historical argument is not ludicrus. young marriages produced the greatest couples in history. young marriages produced strong civilizations and strong families. and how can you claim them psychologically unhealthy? have studies been done on such young marriages? have studies been done on people who were raised to be spouses at that age and who became spouses at that age? or are studies merely done on the developement of the modern american child? though I am weary of entering into the argument from a psychological point of view for reasons mentioned above, I want to see the evidence that this is unhealthy. studies on modern american child developement can't cut it, show me how young marriages that lasted their entire lives and produced pillar-like families were unhealthy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skellmeyer Posted September 17, 2005 Share Posted September 17, 2005 [quote name='Socrates' date='Sep 17 2005, 05:49 PM']What, sir, is this referring to? Context please. [right][snapback]727397[/snapback][/right] [/quote] The bishops of the late 1800's created the Catholic school system in order to keep Catholics out of the rabidly anti-Catholic public school system. Unfortunately, that really wasn't their job. Their job was to educate the adults and let the adults decide how best to teach their children. The bishops violated the principle of subsidiarity by establishing and making compulsory the Catholic parochial school system. Now, the state did the same thing with the public school system, but the bishops shouldn't have piled on. The Magisterial documents are quite clear on this point. In fact, my study is unique in the depth and breadth of Magisterial source documents it uses (Gatto, of course, doesn't touch on any of this) and in the theological analysis of the historical events of the period. Nobody else has done the treatment I have. That's why I've got two ringing endorsements - one from Father C. J. McCloskey of the Faith and Reason Institute (also EWTN) and the other from the leading expert in homeschooling and canon law, the Chancellor of the Diocese of La Crosse (formerly (Arch)Bishop Burke's diocese). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skellmeyer Posted September 17, 2005 Share Posted September 17, 2005 [quote name='hot stuff' date='Sep 17 2005, 06:31 PM']Hmm what else wasn't realized for thousands of years The earth revolving around the sun The earth is actually round and not flat Leeches don't do much for curing what ails you Care for few more examples or will that do? [right][snapback]727484[/snapback][/right] [/quote] The Greeks suspected the earth revolved around the sun. Christians never taught that the earth was flat - that's a canard created in the 1700's and promoted by no less than Washington Irving. Leeches do actually assist in the treatment of certain diseases. Now, the concept of humors and the wholesale use of blood-letting was erroneous, so you might say "the circulation of blood was not realized for thousands of years" and be accurate. But the point is that you are using as examples things which are physical phenomena. We are talking about human behaviour. There is very little in human behaviour that the Scripture writers or the pre-Christian Greeks didn't already acknowledge. As I've already pointed out in this thread, the "science" of adolescence depends on a specific "story" and the biological facts can be interpreted in quite another way (the original agrarian method of raising children) while still accounting for all the evidence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skellmeyer Posted September 17, 2005 Share Posted September 17, 2005 [quote name='hot stuff' date='Sep 17 2005, 06:35 PM']I will agree that the more industrialized a culture, the less rites of passage there are to adulthood. In our culture we have pretty much abolished rites of passage and I believe that is to our detriment. [right][snapback]727497[/snapback][/right] [/quote] We haven't abolished any of the rites of passage - we've just changed them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaime Posted September 17, 2005 Share Posted September 17, 2005 [quote]As I've already pointed out in this thread, the "science" of adolescence depends on a specific "story" and the biological facts can be interpreted in quite another way (the original agrarian method of raising children) while still accounting for all the evidence.[/quote] What you've asserted has been opinion. You've not backed up any of your statements on the "myth" of adolescence. There are fundamental physical and psychological differences between adults and children that have been demonstrated through the studies done by scientists I've mentioned. How a child a, teen and adult approach situations is vastly different based upon physiology and psychology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skellmeyer Posted September 17, 2005 Share Posted September 17, 2005 [quote name='hot stuff' date='Sep 17 2005, 06:57 PM']Ok I'm officially sick to death of the whole "St Joseph did it" argument.What is that supposed to do, make me go hide under the bed? [/quote] No, I believe it's supposed to make you realize that you are wrong. [quote]From a psychological and psychophysiological standpoint, marriages of early teens and preteens is unhealthy. To clarify, putting children in adult situations is unhealthy. It has been and will continue to be. Including the marriages that took place during the birth of Jesus. (Waiting for lightning to strike... no? I'll continue then) [/quote] You have to demonstrate that anyone between the ages of say, eleven and seventeen, are children. So far, you haven't done that. You've made passing reference to some psychological hacks like Piaget, but that hardly constitutes proof. [quote]There are lots of things that we do and there are even more things that our ancestors did that were physically, psychologically and spiritually unhealthy. But that does not mean that cultures and civilizations don't advance. It doesn't mean that we are incapable of great and wondrous things. It simply means that we have the advantage now of knowing things that were not known then. [/quote] Calling the entire history of human experience and practice prior to 1900 "unhealthy" seems out of character with what Chesterton called the genius of Catholic tradition, "the democracy of the dead." [quote]"Well my granddad didn't need no stinking horseless carriage" Its essentially the same argument.[/quote] And that is not a proof against the argument either. There are both advantages and disadvantages to horses and cars. Both cause pollution: one solid, one gaseous. One is fast, one is slow, both use up a lot of resources, but of different kinds. To argue against cars and in favor of horses seems a reasonable position - it all depends on what you want out of society. [quote] The physiological and psychophysiological changes that occur are also facts of science. Its not opinion, its not a conspiracy. Its just the facts. Accept them, or don't. But contrary opinions are just that. opinions [right][snapback]727555[/snapback][/right] [/quote] And as I've pointed out, those changes can be interpreted in more than one way. To say that something happens is a fact. To say that it should be handled one way versus another way is an interpretation of the facts. You are arguing that the fact of teen brain development should be handled through a specific approach. We are arguing it should be handled through an entirely different approach. Our approach is no less "scientific" than yours - although the applicability of science to this situation is quite problematic, as science does not order society, it merely observes phenomena. To use science as the justification for how to order society is to mis-use science and misunderstand what it does. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skellmeyer Posted September 17, 2005 Share Posted September 17, 2005 [quote name='hot stuff' date='Sep 17 2005, 07:01 PM']By the way all of this is simply fodder taking away from the actual debate topic. What this guy did was against the law. No one has provided an argument against that because its a fact. What he did, and what the parents did, is wrong. that would better read "making children into adults is unhealthy" [right][snapback]727560[/snapback][/right] [/quote] What the man did violated human law. It violated divine law only insofar as the two were not married. The two rectified the problem with the divine law by getting married. If they are Catholic, they also hopefully went to confession. What the parents did was permit this resolution to the situation as opposed to separating the two. You don't like their solution. Others don't have a problem with it. And again, you have yet to demonstrate that a 12-year old is a child in the sense that a five-year old is or, indeed, in any other sense at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaime Posted September 17, 2005 Share Posted September 17, 2005 [quote]And as I've pointed out, those changes can be interpreted in more than one way. To say that something happens is a fact. To say that it should be handled one way versus another way is an interpretation of the facts. You are arguing that the fact of teen brain development should be handled through a specific approach. We are arguing it should be handled through an entirely different approach.[/quote] I am arguing that a teen and an adult are distinctively different. No one has provided anything to counter that. And yes the interpretation can be handled differently by culture. Objectively speaking however, because of the differences between children and adults, making children into adults prior to the time that they are there, is in fact unhealthy. Simply stating that Piaget was a hack is an argument? How about Ericksson and Kohlberg? Or is this just a bias against the field of psychology in general? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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