avemaria40 Posted September 17, 2005 Posted September 17, 2005 Wow, i didn't know that the conspiracy about public schools was that big. I do know that in my state, that my diocese had to start making Catholic schools b/c the public schools were really Protestant (my state was founded by Congregationalists) and there were even times where Catholic churches were burned down and the crosses stolen as a response to Catholic immigration in my state
toledo_jesus Posted September 17, 2005 Posted September 17, 2005 From the first moment I heard that adolescence was invented, I recognized it as a problem. Socially invent a period of life? It's possible, but why do it? Now, someone has brought it out for me, and helped me understand. Eugenics. Sneaky.
avemaria40 Posted September 17, 2005 Posted September 17, 2005 I'll prob end up homeschooling my kids. Although i've been in public school most of my life and i converted to Catholicism in freshman year of high school. Then again, i was in Catholic school from 1st to 3rd grade
Aloysius Posted September 17, 2005 Posted September 17, 2005 We Don't need no education We don't need no birth control No planned parenthood in the classroom Teacher leave those kids alone!
skellmeyer Posted September 17, 2005 Posted September 17, 2005 [quote name='avemaria40' date='Sep 17 2005, 10:52 AM']Wow, i didn't know that the conspiracy about public schools was that big. I do know that in my state, that my diocese had to start making Catholic schools b/c the public schools were really Protestant (my state was founded by Congregationalists) and there were even times where Catholic churches were burned down and the crosses stolen as a response to Catholic immigration in my state [right][snapback]726889[/snapback][/right] [/quote] It's hard to call it a conspiracy, because it was just really a bunch of different people who saw a common solution to their diverse problems. They may not even have realized that the others were on board for their own reasons - nor would they care why anyone else agreed with them. Just so long as it happened. As for the anti-Catholicism, yes, it was absolutely vicious. But we are baptized in order to be crucified. The bishops forgot about that. Like Peter, they tried to tell us little images of Christ that we didn't have to go to Golgatha to suffer and die - they would make some nice tents for us right here and everything would be alright. So, instead of being transfigured, we were just deformed.
homeschoolmom Posted September 17, 2005 Posted September 17, 2005 [quote name='Aloysius' date='Sep 17 2005, 12:57 PM']We Don't need no education We don't need no birth control No planned parenthood in the classroom Teacher leave those kids alone! [right][snapback]727048[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Whoa... major flashback...
Jaime Posted September 17, 2005 Posted September 17, 2005 [quote name='toledo_jesus' date='Sep 17 2005, 10:25 AM']From the first moment I heard that adolescence was invented, I recognized it as a problem. Socially invent a period of life? It's possible, but why do it? Now, someone has brought it out for me, and helped me understand. Eugenics. Sneaky. [right][snapback]726918[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Adolescence is not an invention. It is a realization. People like Piaget , Ericksson, and Kohlberg have studied the topic of development. It is not the creation of any particular group.
toledo_jesus Posted September 17, 2005 Posted September 17, 2005 [quote name='hot stuff' date='Sep 17 2005, 05:11 PM']Adolescence is not an invention. It is a realization. People like Piaget , Ericksson, and Kohlberg have studied the topic of development. It is not the creation of any particular group. [right][snapback]727328[/snapback][/right] [/quote] So nobody else realized it for thousands of years? I find that hard to believe. Adolescence is not present in some cultures today. It seems that the more industrial a culture becomes, the longer it takes to become a man.
Socrates Posted September 17, 2005 Posted September 17, 2005 (edited) [quote name='hot stuff' date='Sep 17 2005, 04:11 PM']Adolescence is not an invention. It is a realization. People like Piaget , Ericksson, and Kohlberg have studied the topic of development. It is not the creation of any particular group. [right][snapback]727328[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Actually I half-agree and half-disagree with both hot stuff and with those who say adolescence was "invented." I'd say biologically and psychologically, there is a period of transition between childhood and adulthood. Children don't go to sleep one night, then magically wake up the next fully mature adults. However, the way modern society has created a class of people who for an extended period of time are considered neither adults nor children, having freedoms but few responsibilities, is modern and has overall been detrimental to society. I however, do not believe this was all the result of some "capitalist conspiracy" as Mr. Kellmeyer asserts. Since he apparently is rehashing Mr. Gatto's statements, I'd have to search Mr. Gatto's sources, as most of what I've seen here is standard "anti-capitalist" rhetoric and conspiracy theory, which I have seen much of elsewhere and tend to be rather cynical of and unimpressed by. I think schools can (and in some cases still do) have a good purpose of education. But they should be for true education rather than just a "prison" to hold teenagers until society deems them ready for the workplace. Those teens with no aptitude or interest in serious study should be learning trades rather than wasting there's and other's time in highschool. Those seriously pursuing higher learning would remain in school unhindered by the others. Edited September 17, 2005 by Socrates
avemaria40 Posted September 17, 2005 Posted September 17, 2005 Maybe that's b/c u need more school and training to work in an industrialized society, and b/c it's a long time before u can support urself. Maybe that's why some other cultures don't have adolescence. but i believe adolescence is a transitional phase. And research does confirm that it exists. I think, as an adolescent myself, it's a time of growth, where u are taking on more responsibilities and earning more freedoms, however, you are still in the last vestiges of childhood. how ever, Don John of Austria is correct in saying that you become a man when you have to be.
Socrates Posted September 17, 2005 Posted September 17, 2005 [quote name='skellmeyer' date='Sep 17 2005, 03:34 PM']But we are baptized in order to be crucified. The bishops forgot about that. Like Peter, they tried to tell us little images of Christ that we didn't have to go to Golgatha to suffer and die - they would make some nice tents for us right here and everything would be alright. So, instead of being transfigured, we were just deformed. [right][snapback]727219[/snapback][/right] [/quote] What, sir, is this referring to? Context please.
Jaime Posted September 17, 2005 Posted September 17, 2005 [quote name='toledo_jesus' date='Sep 17 2005, 04:37 PM']So nobody else realized it for thousands of years? I find that hard to believe. Adolescence is not present in some cultures today. It seems that the more industrial a culture becomes, the longer it takes to become a man. [right][snapback]727374[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Hmm what else wasn't realized for thousands of years The earth revolving around the sun The earth is actually round and not flat Leeches don't do much for curing what ails you Care for few more examples or will that do?
Jaime Posted September 17, 2005 Posted September 17, 2005 [quote name='toledo_jesus' date='Sep 17 2005, 04:37 PM']t seems that the more industrial a culture becomes, the longer it takes to become a man. [right][snapback]727374[/snapback][/right] [/quote] I will agree that the more industrialized a culture, the less rites of passage there are to adulthood. In our culture we have pretty much abolished rites of passage and I believe that is to our detriment.
Aloysius Posted September 17, 2005 Posted September 17, 2005 it doesn't matter to me one way or another if it had sinister intentions or not, the fact is that this prolonged childhood has devestating results on family and reproduction. young young marriage being common in a culture produces a culture of life and strong pillar-like families. prolonged childhood when our bodies are already ready for sex produces extra-marital sexual activity. it isn't rocket science. it's obvious biologically and historically. all the rhetoric about capitalism is clouding the issue. it's a clear fact of the natural law that if we are to be married before we have sex then once we have a bunch of hormones telling us to have sex then it's just about time for us to be getting married (generally add a few years for some more developement, but as soon as possible is the best chance)
Aloysius Posted September 17, 2005 Posted September 17, 2005 [quote name='hot stuff' date='Sep 17 2005, 06:31 PM']Hmm what else wasn't realized for thousands of years The earth revolving around the sun The earth is actually round and not flat Leeches don't do much for curing what ails you Care for few more examples or will that do? [right][snapback]727484[/snapback][/right] [/quote] those are completely different, those are objective facts of the science of the world around us. this is something about us ourselves, an ACTION that affects our entire civilization. if for thousands of years we married young and it worked and they had good families and it was completely healthy for them, how can it all the sudden be discovered to have been unhealthy? unless you are prepared to label most marriages throughout history as psychologically unhealthy... which would be quite an extreme statement and I don't believe St. Joseph would be too pleased about it.
Jaime Posted September 17, 2005 Posted September 17, 2005 (edited) Ok I'm officially sick to death of the whole "St Joseph did it" argument.What is that supposed to do, make me go hide under the bed? From a psychological and psychophysiological standpoint, marriages of early teens and preteens is unhealthy. To clarify, putting children in adult situations is unhealthy. It has been and will continue to be. Including the marriages that took place during the birth of Jesus. (Waiting for lightning to strike... no? I'll continue then) There are lots of things that we do and there are even more things that our ancestors did that were physically, psychologically and spiritually unhealthy. But that does not mean that cultures and civilizations don't advance. It doesn't mean that we are incapable of great and wondrous things. It simply means that we have the advantage now of knowing things that were not known then. "Well my granddad didn't need no stinking horseless carriage" Its essentially the same argument. [quote]those are completely different, those are objective facts of the science of the world around us[/quote] The physiological and psychophysiological changes that occur are also facts of science. Its not opinion, its not a conspiracy. Its just the facts. Accept them, or don't. But contrary opinions are just that. opinions Edited September 17, 2005 by jaime
Jaime Posted September 17, 2005 Posted September 17, 2005 (edited) By the way all of this is simply fodder taking away from the actual debate topic. What this guy did was against the law. No one has provided an argument against that because its a fact. What he did, and what the parents did, is wrong. [quote]To clarify, putting children in adult situations is unhealthy.[/quote] that would better read "making children into adults is unhealthy" Edited September 17, 2005 by jaime
Aloysius Posted September 17, 2005 Posted September 17, 2005 I really just can't accept that philosophically, though I know we as a society can advance in areas. to say that all historical marriages were unhealthy when they produced a much more stable civilization than our own is ludicrus. our civilization now is on much more shaky grounds than medieval civilization. anyway, I focus more on the historical aspects because I don't claim to know alot about psychology, nor do I want to know alot about psychology. but the historical argument is not ludicrus. young marriages produced the greatest couples in history. young marriages produced strong civilizations and strong families. and how can you claim them psychologically unhealthy? have studies been done on such young marriages? have studies been done on people who were raised to be spouses at that age and who became spouses at that age? or are studies merely done on the developement of the modern american child? though I am weary of entering into the argument from a psychological point of view for reasons mentioned above, I want to see the evidence that this is unhealthy. studies on modern american child developement can't cut it, show me how young marriages that lasted their entire lives and produced pillar-like families were unhealthy.
skellmeyer Posted September 17, 2005 Posted September 17, 2005 [quote name='Socrates' date='Sep 17 2005, 05:49 PM']What, sir, is this referring to? Context please. [right][snapback]727397[/snapback][/right] [/quote] The bishops of the late 1800's created the Catholic school system in order to keep Catholics out of the rabidly anti-Catholic public school system. Unfortunately, that really wasn't their job. Their job was to educate the adults and let the adults decide how best to teach their children. The bishops violated the principle of subsidiarity by establishing and making compulsory the Catholic parochial school system. Now, the state did the same thing with the public school system, but the bishops shouldn't have piled on. The Magisterial documents are quite clear on this point. In fact, my study is unique in the depth and breadth of Magisterial source documents it uses (Gatto, of course, doesn't touch on any of this) and in the theological analysis of the historical events of the period. Nobody else has done the treatment I have. That's why I've got two ringing endorsements - one from Father C. J. McCloskey of the Faith and Reason Institute (also EWTN) and the other from the leading expert in homeschooling and canon law, the Chancellor of the Diocese of La Crosse (formerly (Arch)Bishop Burke's diocese).
skellmeyer Posted September 17, 2005 Posted September 17, 2005 [quote name='hot stuff' date='Sep 17 2005, 06:31 PM']Hmm what else wasn't realized for thousands of years The earth revolving around the sun The earth is actually round and not flat Leeches don't do much for curing what ails you Care for few more examples or will that do? [right][snapback]727484[/snapback][/right] [/quote] The Greeks suspected the earth revolved around the sun. Christians never taught that the earth was flat - that's a canard created in the 1700's and promoted by no less than Washington Irving. Leeches do actually assist in the treatment of certain diseases. Now, the concept of humors and the wholesale use of blood-letting was erroneous, so you might say "the circulation of blood was not realized for thousands of years" and be accurate. But the point is that you are using as examples things which are physical phenomena. We are talking about human behaviour. There is very little in human behaviour that the Scripture writers or the pre-Christian Greeks didn't already acknowledge. As I've already pointed out in this thread, the "science" of adolescence depends on a specific "story" and the biological facts can be interpreted in quite another way (the original agrarian method of raising children) while still accounting for all the evidence.
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