was it rape?

[avemaria40]

HSmom, i agree totally with what you're saying. Also, many teenagers (proven in several studies according to Time magazine) are impulsive because the part of our brain that controls decision making is not yet developed. So you might end up regretting that decision to marry this person b/c u might realize you're not mature enough or that you love someone else. Also, it's more about infatuation than true romantic love at our age. Very few of the girls i know are still in romantic relationships with the same guy. At our age it's more of, "oh s/he is so cute, maybe s/he will be my BF or GF and we can go to Homecoming or Prom together" Most relationships have lasted a few months at best (although some of my friends are exceptions) and it's all about how cute or fun the other is and it's mostly about kissing and stuff. Then there's the rest of us girls who know absolutely nothing about romantic love.

Edited September 14, 2005 by avemaria40

[homeschoolmom]

[quote name='avemaria40' date='Sep 14 2005, 04:52 PM']HSmom, i agree totally with what you're saying.  Also, many teenagers (proven in several studies according to Time magazine) are impulsive because the part of our brain that controls decision making is not yet developed. So you might end up regretting that decision to marry this person b/c u might realize you're not mature enough or that you love someone else.  Also, it's more about infatuation than true romantic love at our age.  Very few of the girls i know are still in romantic relationships with the same guy.  At our age it's more of, "oh s/he is so cute, maybe s/he will be my BF or GF and we can go to Homecoming or Prom together"  Most relationships have lasted a few months at best (although some of my friends are exceptions) and it's all about how cute or fun the other is and it's mostly about kissing and stuff. Then there's the rest of us girls who know absolutely nothing about romantic love.
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Thank the Good Lord above I didn't marry the boy who was my "boyfriend" from when I was 15. I couldn't even pick out a decent hairstyle back then...

[homeschoolmom]

[quote name='hot stuff' date='Sep 14 2005, 04:50 PM']40?  FORTY?!??
AUGGHHHHH   
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Yeah, I was going to say 38, but I thought that would sink you into a deep depression and you'd start smoking again...

[Jaime]

I blame you

[homeschoolmom]

[quote name='hot stuff' date='Sep 14 2005, 05:13 PM']
I blame you
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[Socrates]

[quote name='Aloysius' date='Sep 14 2005, 11:18 AM']natural law strongly indicates that we should be raising and preparing children to be ready for marriage and children as close to the time of their sexual maturity as possible.  it is simply contrary to nature to prolong any further than necessary the time between sexual maturity and marriage.  on this our culture and legal system transgresses on the natural law and it has caused a lot of the sexual immaturity, promiscuity, and rampant divorce our culutre is so famous for.

that said, I'm not sure the intentions of this man in his initial sexual encounter with this 12 year old.  however, it is not 'rape', though it could be a case of pedophilia/perversion depending on what the intentions of this man were.

the marriage of two people of such ages is not at all morally objectionable though.

our culture is incorrect here.  (yes, cultures can be INCORRECT about things)
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I most heartily disagree! Do you really, seriously think we would be better off if kids got married as soon as they reached puberty? Do you really think 12 or 13 year old kids getting married and having chidren would be a good thing for society?

Marriage is about raising a family and the raising and upbringing of children. Quite frankly, the vast majority of young teenagers are not up to this task. Despite what they might tell you, young teenagers are far from mature emotionally, psychologically, spiritually, or financially.

Think about the children of the teenage parents! Do you really think it would be in the best interest of children to be raised by adolescent parents? Marriage and raising a family is a tremendous responsibility, and not one that 11-16 year olds are ready for. I would even argue that most 18-20 year olds are better off waiting a bit. (I certainly know I was not mature at that age!) But certainly, kids not old enough for high-school should not be getting married and having babies!

And I'd disagree that pubescent weddings would restore sexual morality and end the social problems listed. I've know of plenty of people who prematurely rushed into early marriages which became messes, and later divorced and remarried.

It seems to that whoever is arguing in favor of 12 year olds getting married is not thinking logically and rationally, but romanticizing the disgusting and ignoring a lot of the hard, cold facts.

And all I can say is, however the law defines it, a 20-year-old having sex with a 12 year old is wrong! If I was that girl's dad, I'd make sure that guy stayed hospitalized a long time!

And I think any grown man lusting after 12 year olds is a pervert. I have no interest in 12 year old girls. That's not "Catholic" or "medieval" or "traditionalist" or anything else - it's disgusting!

[avemaria40]

Amen Socrates

[homeschoolmom]

[quote name='Socrates' date='Sep 14 2005, 05:22 PM']And I think any grown man lusting after 12 year olds is a pervert.  I have no interest in 12 year old girls.  That's not "Catholic" or "medieval" or "traditionalist" or anything else - it's disgusting!
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[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='homeschoolmom' date='Sep 14 2005, 04:47 PM']Don John-- Why the rush to marry off young girls? In a time and place (say, Biblical times) where the life expectancy was say... 40, it was probably wise and prudent to begin family life in ones teens. However, as we have pretty much doubled that life expectancy, why the rush to push people into adulthood??
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there was never a time with a life expectancy of say 40, not in the sense that it is presented, there was a very high death rate of children, and men where often killed in war and accedents and women in childbirth. those things kept the "average " low. but assuming you where not killed by one of those things chances where you would live to a ripe old age of 70+ just like now, if you take out the high infant mortality rate alone the lowest averages would be closer to 60. The Bible refers to the days of man as being 3 score years and 10 but then adds the strong may live longer. This tells us that people expected to live to be 70 or so, not 40, yet they got married young.

There is no rush to push people into adulthood but a shock at the lack of acknoledgement of adulthood. When my father was a boy he new an old indian, one who had been in the indian wars of our own West, when my Father as him about the things he did fighting the US army at such a young age he told my Father something which my Father pasted down to me and I believe with my whole heart " You become a man when you have to." we push the age of manhood back more and more, so much that I here people crying on the news about how their children never got a chance to grow up because they where killed in Iraq---in the Armed Forces. Womenhood to we push back saying that a female is a girl into her 20's for God sake, some one is practically middle aged before anyone will call them an adult. That is carp. I have taught 12 to 15 year olds for some time now, and many of them are more mature than a lot of 25 year olds. many of those 14 year old girls I would trust my son to in a crisis, many of those 14 year old boys I would toss a gun to and trust to watch my back in that same crisis. I would go so far to say I would trust more at 14 than at 24. Why ? because they have not yet been ruined by the world. They have not been convinced yet that there wants are more important than their responsabilities. Further the Biological drive to have sex in the teen years is strong, very strong. Why do you think that is, because that is the age when those bonds are supposed to form. People should be marrying their highschool sweetheart marriage atthat age is NORMAL. It is our culture which has preverted the whole thing.

Edit-- Jamie so you really wouldn't have to worry at 38 you would have likly lived to be 70 or so.

Edited September 14, 2005 by Don John of Austria

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='avemaria40' date='Sep 14 2005, 04:52 PM']HSmom, i agree totally with what you're saying.  Also, many teenagers (proven in several studies according to Time magazine) are impulsive because the part of our brain that controls decision making is not yet developed. So you might end up regretting that decision to marry this person b/c u might realize you're not mature enough or that you love someone else.  Also, it's more about infatuation than true romantic love at our age.  Very few of the girls i know are still in romantic relationships with the same guy.  At our age it's more of, "oh s/he is so cute, maybe s/he will be my BF or GF and we can go to Homecoming or Prom together"  Most relationships have lasted a few months at best (although some of my friends are exceptions) and it's all about how cute or fun the other is and it's mostly about kissing and stuff. Then there's the rest of us girls who know absolutely nothing about romantic love.
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Of course thats the case because that is what you have been raised to do, that is not because it ts the norm for the species.

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='Socrates' date='Sep 14 2005, 05:22 PM']I most heartily disagree!  Do you really, seriously think we would be better off if kids got married as soon as they reached puberty?  Do you really think 12 or 13 year old kids getting married and having chidren would be a good thing for society?

Marriage is about raising a family and the raising and upbringing of children.  Quite frankly, the vast majority of young teenagers are not up to this task.  Despite what they might tell you,  young teenagers are far from mature emotionally, psychologically, spiritually, or financially.

Think about the children of the teenage parents!  Do you really think it would be in the best interest of children to be raised by adolescent parents?  Marriage and raising a family is a tremendous responsibility, and not one that 11-16 year olds are ready for.  I would even argue that most 18-20 year olds are better off waiting a bit.  (I certainly know I was not mature at that age!)  But certainly, kids not old enough for high-school should not be getting married and having babies! 

And I'd disagree that pubescent weddings would restore sexual morality and end the social problems listed.  I've know of plenty of people who prematurely rushed into early marriages which became messes, and later divorced and remarried.

It seems to that whoever is arguing in favor of 12 year olds getting married is not thinking logically and rationally, but romanticizing the disgusting and ignoring a lot of the hard, cold facts.

And all I can say is, however the law defines it, a 20-year-old having sex with a 12 year old is wrong!  If I was that girl's dad, I'd make sure that guy stayed hospitalized a long time!

And I think any grown man lusting after 12 year olds is a pervert.  I have no interest in 12 year old girls.  That's not "Catholic" or "medieval" or "traditionalist" or anything else - it's disgusting!
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Well I know plenty of people who waited until they where 30 + who got devorced to whats your point, I also know people who got married as teens have 4 kids, a house, and are past thier 10th aniversery so what?



Oh and by the way strictly speaking lust itself is a perversion, so lusting after anyone makes you a pervert.

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='avemaria40' date='Sep 14 2005, 04:27 PM']biologically, yes, but how many 17-19 year old teen girls do you know who are emotionally, and spiritually mature enough to get married and have babies? may be if our culture was different yes, but these young women in our culture have just barely finished high school education and are experiencing the taste of freedom for the first time in their lives.  i know that in her teens if a woman has a baby, and also, if she decides to nurse the infant, that she will be less likely to get breast cancer, but she can get the same benefits if she married and had babies in her twenties.
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QUite a few actually, virtually all of the successful marriages I know of where by people of 20 or lower.

[Oik]

According to the customs of the Roman Rite of the Church, the man and the woman are the ministers of the Sacrament. With that said, let's look to the Roman Rites understanding of the sanctity of marriage when it comes to Non- Catholics:

[quote]ALL marriages are presumed valid and require a declaration of nullity to be issued before one is allowed to marry in the Catholic Church -- this includes all marriages, even those involving non-Catholics.
The only exception to this is if one or both of the parties to the marriage are Catholic and they did not get married in the Catholic Church (according to Catholic Church law).

The fact of children does not affect the situation.

Answer by Rev. Mark J. Gantley, JCL on 01-15-2005[/quote]

[url="http://www.ewtn.com/vexperts/showresult.asp?RecNum=425299&Forums=0&Experts=0&Days=2005&Author=&Keyword=civil+marriage&pgnu=1&groupnum=0&record_bookmark=49&ORDER_BY_TXT=ORDER+BY+ReplyDate+DESC&start_at="]source[/url]

[quote]LAW OF THE LAND
Man, 22, faces charges for sex with wife, 13
Despite parental consent for marriage, state continues prosecution

Posted: July 26, 2005
6:01 p.m. Eastern

© 2005 WorldNetDaily.com

A 22-year-old Nebraska man who married the 13-year-old girl he got pregnant is now facing criminal charges for illegally having sex with her.

Matthew Koso of Falls City could get 50 years in prison on a charge of first-degree sexual assault, even though he married the girl, who is now 14, with her parents' blessing.


"The idea ... is repugnant to me," Nebraska Attorney General Jon Bruning told the Associated Press.[b] "These people made the decision to send their ... 14-year-old daughter to Kansas to marry a pedophile." [/b]

He said [b]the marriage is valid, thanks to the "ridiculous" Kansas law, "but it doesn't matter. I'm not going to stand by while a grown man ... has a relationship with a 13-year-old – now 14-year-old – girl."[/b]

[/quote]

[url="http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=45459"]Source[/url]

Should the parents go on trial for blantantly disobeying the law? They are all acessories to the fact and cooperated in encouraging illegal behavior. They gave thier blessing!


As for criminal punishment, I don't know. This case should have a thourogh trial, it's not cut and dry.

As for punishment, I think that the law was broken. The parents are guilty, the guy and girl are guilty. They should all be prosecuted, not just the guy.

If the guy get a punishments, he should be tried according to the law of Nebraska.

Maybe they should be expelled from Nebraska and have to live in Kansas.

[son_of_angels]

The problem with today's teenage relationships is that they do not have marriage, commitment, sex (sometimes), or really anything else important in mind when a relationship is entered into. This leads to a false understanding of what is expected in a long term relationship, ergo, even women who marry at 35 don't seem to be able to hold a relationship together.

Part of this is the practice of publicly educating women, as well as young boys. This thrusts them into a society which encourages romantic involvement without consequence. Used to, if you were even as old as 25 and you courted a girl who was 15 or even 13, it was in the context of a whole family.

However, in this case it seems that the boy was indeed able to look past the fact "holy carp I impregnated a teen" and was able to see his responsibility. As long as both step up to the plate on this, I see no reason why their marriage won't proceed nicely.

What will the child be left with if the husband goes off to prison? The parents weren't able to take care of their own children. Foster parents? Often times these are more irresponsible than the parents who left them. The child has a right to HIS parents, yea, not only a right, but a responsibility.

[MichaelFilo]

What makes a woman nowadays, at the age of puberty, inable to make the same decisions that possibly her great-grandmother made at that same age? You see, those girls 150 years ago (or 100, or even 10 it seems) who got married at that age were really no different from this case. All that has changed is our view of those girls. We no longer see the young as little adults, but instead as grown up babies. Some people still marry off their daughters at a young age, and I assure you, those people don't have such messed up divorce rates and highly criminal children born to young women.

There is a debate in philosophy of what is universal to all peoples, and what is specific to culture. Looking into that a bit, one may realize how difficult it is to find anything universal when culture is such a strong force upon it's peoples. Such basic claims as men tend to have more aggressive personalities and women are more attuned to nurturing can be considered universal, until you find that one culture that breaks with that norm (and their is). What about colors, no race has ever been color blind, so it must be universal, correct? Funny thing is, some races of people only see 3; black, red, and white. What is that to say, that the very basics of what we consider universal are actually cultural (our understanding of colors, times, basic bilogical gender roles)? Hardly so, at least not to me. A theory of mine (although, I am not sure if it has been proposed, but if it hasn't, I'll make sure to publish a book about it and shock the scientific world : ) is that universal attributes do exist, but are trumped by cultural mores and convention. For instance, why is that 3 colors are seen, instead of our spectrum of colors? Because culturally, there is no need to define the rest, and so they do not recognize, but do see them. Or why is it that certain native American tribes leave the cooking to the men and the crop-growing to the women? Why is it in those tribes, the men tend to fit our stereotypes of women much better than that of men? Because culturally, they are denying a universal aspect (which is unnatural, since denying universal realities is always unnatural) for a cultural convention. To that culture, their pracitice seems normal, and to them the very nature of men and women reflect that. To us, we see that they are an anomoly when compared to the larger world-view. I see the same of today's thought on the age of marriage and children. We say it is wrong so much, we begin to believe it (and what an unholy thing to call the intentions of Joseph and Mary as wrong simply because we think so! (note, Mary probably was expecting maritial relations at her betrothal to Joseph). We even proclaim that pubescent girls are innable to decide so much that we jump in shock when we see an instance when they can and do. We quicly reffer to how we know people who's lives were ruined by being married young (and we even believe it is because of their age, not because of our socitial views on that bond which can do more damage on a couple than one may think).

On this case, fornication is always wrong and no one must remain unrepentant of it. However, I fail to see why their marriage should be looked down upon. I can't seem to see the problem in this situation at all. What is better, a single mother, an orphan, a dead child? I'd rather see a child with a mother and father rather than in any of those situations.

God bless,
Mikey