was it rape?

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='son_of_angels' date='Sep 14 2005, 03:54 PM']Look, you people are nuts.  This type of thinking allows us to discredit the institution of marriage altogether.  For better or worse, they're married, end of discussion.  They have comitted no crime which is intrinsically harmful to society, and by their marriage are living in the life designated for parents by God.

The child deserves a father and a mother, not just any father and mother, not the BEST father and mother, but HIS father and mother.  If they live in accordance with God's plan for marriage, they will be a great gift for God in their charity for one another.

If, however, we are willing, without good cause, to separate a family, break up a marriage, distort our understanding of life and the family past the breaking point just to conform to human traditions and superstitions, we destroy the fabric of our faith.  There is no hatred, no loneliness, no deprivation now, why should we create it?
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/sign

[avemaria40]

Even if girls physically mature faster, they doesn't mean they mature emotionally and spiritually at the same time. I started puberty at the age of 9, does that mean i should be married for 7 years and with children right now? I don't think i'm as emotionally mature as i should be and i didn't start to spiritually mature until i was about 13. Even though i'm 16 and developed, does not mean that i should be married and having children. And i don't think the mother should be put in juvenile jail. I think that the husband should have some form of punishment but he should also support his child and his wife. I think that it is important that the baby be raised in a stable home rather than go into foster homes her whole childhood and she should have both a mother and a father. I know ppl who are single moms (though they are much older) and it's a struggle to raise children by themselves and work, and try to finish an education. this girl is trying to be responsible, she is completing school and taking care of her little daughter. I can't even begin to imagine what that must be like! I think babysitting my brother for 3 hours every day wears me out.

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='avemaria40' date='Sep 14 2005, 04:13 PM']Even if girls physically mature faster, they doesn't mean they mature emotionally and spiritually at the same time.  I started puberty at the age of 9, does that mean i should be married for 7 years and with children right now?  I don't think i'm as emotionally mature as i should be and i didn't start to spiritually mature until i was about 13.  Even though  i'm 16 and developed, does not mean that i should be married and having children.  And i don't think the mother should be put in juvenile jail.  I think that the husband should have some form of punishment but he should also support his child and his wife.  I think that it is important that the baby be raised in a stable home rather than go into foster homes her whole childhood and she should have both a mother and a father.  I know ppl who are single moms (though they are much older) and it's a struggle to raise children by themselves and work, and try to finish an education.  this girl is trying to be responsible, she is completing school and taking care of her little daughter.  I can't even begin to imagine what that must be like!  I think babysitting my brother for 3 hours every day wears me out.
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should you be married now, I really am not fit to judge that, but you sshould certianly be able to marry now. If you are as you say physically and spiritually and emotionally mature.


Edit: people should not act as if ou are incompetant just because you are 16.

Edited September 14, 2005 by Don John of Austria

[avemaria40]

Teen girls should finish school and get some life experience. In our culture, girls arent as mature yet, and we're not even done with our education. I think education is necessary, so we can get jobs to help take care of our families, or at the very least use our gifts to raise our children well. If a teen girl gets married and has a baby too young, she doesn't always get the education and experience she needs. And marriage is a really big step, one that should wait until maturity and life experience are achieved

Edited September 14, 2005 by avemaria40

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='avemaria40' date='Sep 14 2005, 04:20 PM']I'm not even finished with high school yet,  i don't know what life in the real world is like!  life experience should be necessary so that if God sees fit to bless me with children, i'll know how to raise them and how to teach them how to live, and to love my husband the way he should be loved.  There is absolutely no reason for me to be married right now.  And there actually evidence saying that sexually active teen girls are more likely to get STD's because a teen girls body isn't developed to the point where it can prevent infections because she's not  that grown up yet.
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teen girls who are sleeping around are more likly to get VD not teen married women, and I really doubt that it has anything to do with her body's development, 17 - 19 is biologically speaking the perfect age to have children for a women.

[avemaria40]

biologically, yes, but how many 17-19 year old teen girls do you know who are emotionally, and spiritually mature enough to get married and have babies? may be if our culture was different yes, but these young women in our culture have just barely finished high school education and are experiencing the taste of freedom for the first time in their lives. i know that in her teens if a woman has a baby, and also, if she decides to nurse the infant, that she will be less likely to get breast cancer, but she can get the same benefits if she married and had babies in her twenties.

[skellmeyer]

[quote name='son_of_angels' date='Sep 14 2005, 04:54 PM']Look, you people are nuts.  This type of thinking allows us to discredit the institution of marriage altogether.  For better or worse, they're married, end of discussion.  They have comitted no crime which is intrinsically harmful to society, and by their marriage are living in the life designated for parents by God.

The child deserves a father and a mother, not just any father and mother, not the BEST father and mother, but HIS father and mother.  If they live in accordance with God's plan for marriage, they will be a great gift for God in their charity for one another.

If, however, we are willing, without good cause, to separate a family, break up a marriage, distort our understanding of life and the family past the breaking point just to conform to human traditions and superstitions, we destroy the fabric of our faith.  There is no hatred, no loneliness, no deprivation now, why should we create it?
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This is the only reasonable reply in the whole thread.
The man is right.

[Jaime]

[quote name='skellmeyer' date='Sep 14 2005, 04:28 PM']This is the only reasonable reply in the whole thread.
The man is right.
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I disagree completely for oh so many reasons

First of all Son of Angels inference (and the argument being made by others) is that they were married in a Catholic ceremony. Nowhere in the article is that mentioned nor would they be. No priest would allow this for two reasons

1. She's a baby
B. It is no longer the practice of the Church to allow couples to marry immediately if they are pregnant. They must wait until the birth of the baby.

This was a civil ceremony I'm sure. There is no "sanctity" of marriage to protect.

This is an easy case for civil annullment.

Do not infer sacredness on what has none. This is a case of two troubled kids.

[homeschoolmom]

Don John-- Why the rush to marry off young girls? In a time and place (say, Biblical times) where the life expectancy was say... 40, it was probably wise and prudent to begin family life in ones teens. However, as we have pretty much doubled that life expectancy, why the rush to push people into adulthood??

[Jaime]

[quote name='homeschoolmom' date='Sep 14 2005, 04:47 PM']Don John-- Why the rush to marry off young girls? In a time and place (say, Biblical times) where the life expectancy was say... 40,
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40? FORTY?!??


AUGGHHHHH

[avemaria40]

HSmom, i agree totally with what you're saying. Also, many teenagers (proven in several studies according to Time magazine) are impulsive because the part of our brain that controls decision making is not yet developed. So you might end up regretting that decision to marry this person b/c u might realize you're not mature enough or that you love someone else. Also, it's more about infatuation than true romantic love at our age. Very few of the girls i know are still in romantic relationships with the same guy. At our age it's more of, "oh s/he is so cute, maybe s/he will be my BF or GF and we can go to Homecoming or Prom together" Most relationships have lasted a few months at best (although some of my friends are exceptions) and it's all about how cute or fun the other is and it's mostly about kissing and stuff. Then there's the rest of us girls who know absolutely nothing about romantic love.

Edited September 14, 2005 by avemaria40

[homeschoolmom]

[quote name='avemaria40' date='Sep 14 2005, 04:52 PM']HSmom, i agree totally with what you're saying.  Also, many teenagers (proven in several studies according to Time magazine) are impulsive because the part of our brain that controls decision making is not yet developed. So you might end up regretting that decision to marry this person b/c u might realize you're not mature enough or that you love someone else.  Also, it's more about infatuation than true romantic love at our age.  Very few of the girls i know are still in romantic relationships with the same guy.  At our age it's more of, "oh s/he is so cute, maybe s/he will be my BF or GF and we can go to Homecoming or Prom together"  Most relationships have lasted a few months at best (although some of my friends are exceptions) and it's all about how cute or fun the other is and it's mostly about kissing and stuff. Then there's the rest of us girls who know absolutely nothing about romantic love.
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Thank the Good Lord above I didn't marry the boy who was my "boyfriend" from when I was 15. I couldn't even pick out a decent hairstyle back then...

[homeschoolmom]

[quote name='hot stuff' date='Sep 14 2005, 04:50 PM']40?  FORTY?!??
AUGGHHHHH   
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Yeah, I was going to say 38, but I thought that would sink you into a deep depression and you'd start smoking again...

[Jaime]

I blame you

[homeschoolmom]

[quote name='hot stuff' date='Sep 14 2005, 05:13 PM']
I blame you
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[Socrates]

[quote name='Aloysius' date='Sep 14 2005, 11:18 AM']natural law strongly indicates that we should be raising and preparing children to be ready for marriage and children as close to the time of their sexual maturity as possible.  it is simply contrary to nature to prolong any further than necessary the time between sexual maturity and marriage.  on this our culture and legal system transgresses on the natural law and it has caused a lot of the sexual immaturity, promiscuity, and rampant divorce our culutre is so famous for.

that said, I'm not sure the intentions of this man in his initial sexual encounter with this 12 year old.  however, it is not 'rape', though it could be a case of pedophilia/perversion depending on what the intentions of this man were.

the marriage of two people of such ages is not at all morally objectionable though.

our culture is incorrect here.  (yes, cultures can be INCORRECT about things)
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I most heartily disagree! Do you really, seriously think we would be better off if kids got married as soon as they reached puberty? Do you really think 12 or 13 year old kids getting married and having chidren would be a good thing for society?

Marriage is about raising a family and the raising and upbringing of children. Quite frankly, the vast majority of young teenagers are not up to this task. Despite what they might tell you, young teenagers are far from mature emotionally, psychologically, spiritually, or financially.

Think about the children of the teenage parents! Do you really think it would be in the best interest of children to be raised by adolescent parents? Marriage and raising a family is a tremendous responsibility, and not one that 11-16 year olds are ready for. I would even argue that most 18-20 year olds are better off waiting a bit. (I certainly know I was not mature at that age!) But certainly, kids not old enough for high-school should not be getting married and having babies!

And I'd disagree that pubescent weddings would restore sexual morality and end the social problems listed. I've know of plenty of people who prematurely rushed into early marriages which became messes, and later divorced and remarried.

It seems to that whoever is arguing in favor of 12 year olds getting married is not thinking logically and rationally, but romanticizing the disgusting and ignoring a lot of the hard, cold facts.

And all I can say is, however the law defines it, a 20-year-old having sex with a 12 year old is wrong! If I was that girl's dad, I'd make sure that guy stayed hospitalized a long time!

And I think any grown man lusting after 12 year olds is a pervert. I have no interest in 12 year old girls. That's not "Catholic" or "medieval" or "traditionalist" or anything else - it's disgusting!

[avemaria40]

Amen Socrates

[homeschoolmom]

[quote name='Socrates' date='Sep 14 2005, 05:22 PM']And I think any grown man lusting after 12 year olds is a pervert.  I have no interest in 12 year old girls.  That's not "Catholic" or "medieval" or "traditionalist" or anything else - it's disgusting!
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[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='homeschoolmom' date='Sep 14 2005, 04:47 PM']Don John-- Why the rush to marry off young girls? In a time and place (say, Biblical times) where the life expectancy was say... 40, it was probably wise and prudent to begin family life in ones teens. However, as we have pretty much doubled that life expectancy, why the rush to push people into adulthood??
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there was never a time with a life expectancy of say 40, not in the sense that it is presented, there was a very high death rate of children, and men where often killed in war and accedents and women in childbirth. those things kept the "average " low. but assuming you where not killed by one of those things chances where you would live to a ripe old age of 70+ just like now, if you take out the high infant mortality rate alone the lowest averages would be closer to 60. The Bible refers to the days of man as being 3 score years and 10 but then adds the strong may live longer. This tells us that people expected to live to be 70 or so, not 40, yet they got married young.

There is no rush to push people into adulthood but a shock at the lack of acknoledgement of adulthood. When my father was a boy he new an old indian, one who had been in the indian wars of our own West, when my Father as him about the things he did fighting the US army at such a young age he told my Father something which my Father pasted down to me and I believe with my whole heart " You become a man when you have to." we push the age of manhood back more and more, so much that I here people crying on the news about how their children never got a chance to grow up because they where killed in Iraq---in the Armed Forces. Womenhood to we push back saying that a female is a girl into her 20's for God sake, some one is practically middle aged before anyone will call them an adult. That is carp. I have taught 12 to 15 year olds for some time now, and many of them are more mature than a lot of 25 year olds. many of those 14 year old girls I would trust my son to in a crisis, many of those 14 year old boys I would toss a gun to and trust to watch my back in that same crisis. I would go so far to say I would trust more at 14 than at 24. Why ? because they have not yet been ruined by the world. They have not been convinced yet that there wants are more important than their responsabilities. Further the Biological drive to have sex in the teen years is strong, very strong. Why do you think that is, because that is the age when those bonds are supposed to form. People should be marrying their highschool sweetheart marriage atthat age is NORMAL. It is our culture which has preverted the whole thing.

Edit-- Jamie so you really wouldn't have to worry at 38 you would have likly lived to be 70 or so.

Edited September 14, 2005 by Don John of Austria

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='avemaria40' date='Sep 14 2005, 04:52 PM']HSmom, i agree totally with what you're saying.  Also, many teenagers (proven in several studies according to Time magazine) are impulsive because the part of our brain that controls decision making is not yet developed. So you might end up regretting that decision to marry this person b/c u might realize you're not mature enough or that you love someone else.  Also, it's more about infatuation than true romantic love at our age.  Very few of the girls i know are still in romantic relationships with the same guy.  At our age it's more of, "oh s/he is so cute, maybe s/he will be my BF or GF and we can go to Homecoming or Prom together"  Most relationships have lasted a few months at best (although some of my friends are exceptions) and it's all about how cute or fun the other is and it's mostly about kissing and stuff. Then there's the rest of us girls who know absolutely nothing about romantic love.
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Of course thats the case because that is what you have been raised to do, that is not because it ts the norm for the species.