was it rape?

[Carrie]

[quote name='Ora et Labora' date='Sep 14 2005, 02:42 PM']First of all, isnt rape when you are forced through it? It didnt seem like she was. And, she looked like she wanted to get married.

But it is really wierd! Only ten years apart, but in this case WAY to young!

And if they are married and have a kid......this is hard to figure out.
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Statuatory rape is when a legal adult has a sexual encounter with a minor. Force is not necessary in this case.

[Carrie]

[quote name='Aloysius' date='Sep 14 2005, 01:18 PM'] however, it is not 'rape', though it could be a case of pedophilia/perversion depending on what the intentions of this man were.

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Actually, it IS rape: stauatory rape.

And I second what HSmom said.

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='Totus Tuus' date='Sep 14 2005, 11:14 AM']Yes, girls have to have "completed their fourteenth year" and boys their sixteenth.
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by the way completing your 14th year means your 14 not 15 as someone said earlier, we do not start counting from 1 but from 0, you are not 1 until you have completed your 1st year.

[Ora et Labora]

[quote name='Carrie' date='Sep 14 2005, 01:03 PM']Statuatory rape is when a legal adult has a sexual encounter with a minor.  Force is not necessary in this case.
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Oh, okay.

[Oik]

Would you say that the male in this situation is mature and/or an adult at the time he an the girl had sex?

[Carrie]

[quote name='Oik' date='Sep 14 2005, 03:39 PM']Would you say that the male in this situation is mature and/or an adult at the time he an the girl had sex?
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He was 20 years old.

By law, that makes him an adult.

[cmotherofpirl]

The cultural norm and laws of the United States are the only ones we should be concerned about.

A 12 year old girl was raped by a 20 year old man.
He was legal adult and his ass should go to jail.
Just because he married her after doesn't excuse him raping her.
He should go to jail until she turns 18, and is an legal adult herself.

[Carrie]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='Sep 14 2005, 03:54 PM']The cultural norm and laws of the United States are the only ones we should be concerned about.

A 12 year old girl was  raped by a 20 year old man.
He was legal adult and his ass should go to jail.
Just because he married her after doesn't excuse him raping her.
He should go to jail until  she turns 18, and is an legal adult herself.
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Cmom has spoken!!

[quote]Just because he married her after doesn't excuse him raping her.[/quote]

Also, you make this point, which is a good one, that people seem to not be aware of.

There are alot of misconceptions about rape. For those who think it is ok because they are married: rape can happen within a marriage as well.

I know that is a bit off topic, but I thought it should be said.

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='Sep 14 2005, 01:54 PM']The cultural norm and laws of the United States are the only ones we should be concerned about.

A 12 year old girl was  raped by a 20 year old man.
He was legal adult and his ass should go to jail.
Just because he married her after doesn't excuse him raping her.
He should go to jail until  she turns 18, and is an legal adult herself.
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she is a legal adult now, the instant they where married she became a legal adult.

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='Carrie' date='Sep 14 2005, 01:57 PM']Cmom has spoken!! 
Also, you make this point, which is a good one, that people seem to not be aware of. 

There are alot of misconceptions about rape.  For those who think it is ok because they are married: rape can happen within a marriage as well.

I know that is a bit off topic, but I thought it should be said.
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yes please let us not get into the, is it possible to rape your spouse debate. Please God in heaven please.

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='homeschoolmom' date='Sep 14 2005, 08:58 AM']Yeah, don't remind me...

That still doesn't make a person prepared for motherhood....
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what does,really?

[Carrie]

[quote name='Don John of Austria' date='Sep 14 2005, 04:24 PM']she is a legal adult now, the instant they where married she became a legal adult.
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They had sex before they were married, so she wasn't an adult at that time.

[Carrie]

[quote name='Don John of Austria' date='Sep 14 2005, 04:25 PM']yes please let us not get into the, is it possible to rape your spouse debate. Please God in heaven please.
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We don't need to debate it at all because not only is it possible, but it happens.

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='Carrie' date='Sep 14 2005, 02:27 PM']They had sex before they were married, so she wasn't an adult at that time.
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True but I was responding to this:

[quote]He should go to jail until she turns 18, and is an legal adult herself.[/quote] That makes no sense as she is now right this very instant an adult.

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='Carrie' date='Sep 14 2005, 02:28 PM']We don't need to debate it at all because not only is it possible, but it happens.
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please? I asked nicely. What if I beg a bit.

Please- please - please- please - please - please-please?

[Oik]

[quote]The cultural norm and laws of the United States are the only ones we should be concerned about.

A 12 year old girl was raped by a 20 year old man.
He was legal adult and his ass should go to jail.
Just because he married her after doesn't excuse him raping her.
He should go to jail until she turns 18, and is an legal adult herself.
[/quote]

Agreed.

The mother should go to juvenile prison until she is legal age.
The baby should be put in a foster hom and should be a ward of the State. After all, what judge would give the infant to a man in porison.


If I was the guy, i'd just sue the mother for custody since I am legally mature adult at the age of 18.

That's what my 'ass' would be doing in my case.

-OR-

A girl doesn't seduce, only women seduce, right? So this is not a matter of seduction. Is this clearly a matter of the pervert (wierdo, socially immature) adult man preying on an innocent pre-teen? I say that it is not and there is more to it than that.

Also, what seems to be the motive of the state or city or whatever in this case? Why bring charges?

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='Sep 14 2005, 01:54 PM']The cultural norm and laws of the United States are the only ones we should be concerned about.

A 12 year old girl was  raped by a 20 year old man.
He was legal adult and his ass should go to jail.
Just because he married her after doesn't excuse him raping her.
He should go to jail until  she turns 18, and is an legal adult herself.
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If you contend that he should be tried for statory rape then that is your right however please say " he commited statutory rape and should be punished" but do not say " he raped a 12 year old girl" because he did not do that, not by our cultures traditional definition of rape.

[Oik]

[quote]State age to wed could change

Kansas, like many states, has set no minimum age for marriage. Some lawmakers want to change that.

BY STAN FINGER

The Wichita Eagle

Local legislators say they want to revisit the state's marriage law after a 22-year-old Nebraska man brought his pregnant 13-year-old girlfriend to Kansas to marry her.

Matthew Koso of Falls City, Neb., has been charged with having sex with an underage girl. And Nebraska Attorney General Jon Bruning last week called the Kansas law permitting the marriage ridiculous.

Kansas Rep. Don Myers, R-Derby, used the same word for the law. He said he did not realize it set no minimum age for marriage.

"I'll bet it's one of the first things we look at when we go back into session," Myers said. "I think we'll probably jump right on that one."

Rep. Jo Ann Pottorff, R-Wichita, said she was shocked to learn a 13-year-old girl could marry in Kansas.

"I'm sure we'll be looking at something next session," she said.

Kansas is among more than 40 states without a mandatory minimum age for marriage. But being part of a large crowd didn't make startled lawmakers any happier. Only about half a dozen states have set minimum ages for marriage.

Five girls under the age of 15 got married in Kansas in 2003, the most recent year for which data is available. Three were married in 2002, and six were married in 2001, according to statistics compiled by the Kansas Department of Health and Environment.

Every state requires children under the age of 18 to obtain outside consent -- from parents, guardians or a court -- before they can marry.

Kansas requires the consent of at least one parent or guardian and a judge, or all living parents and guardians, for a marriage license to be granted to someone under 18.

But child services officials question whether current law goes far enough.

"How old are these laws?" asked Vickie McArthur, director of prevention and community services for the Kansas Children's Service League. "Historically, people married at a much younger age, before we really had an adolescence.

"When life expectancy was lower, you were thrown into a working life and married life much sooner.... That's not where we are today."

Kansas first passed a marriage law in 1867, six years after becoming a state and two years after the Civil War ended. It has been amended several times since, most recently in 1996.

Rep. Jim Ward, D-Wichita, said Kansas has traditionally relied on parents to know what's best for their kids.

"But now, with the way things are, we might have to take a look at that and see if we don't need a mandatory minimum," Ward said. "I don't think that we trust parents less now. There are so many things going on that any tools that we can have to help parents, we want to make sure that we do.

"As times change, as stresses on families change... then the law changes, too."

Protection of minors

Nebraska prohibits anyone under 17 from marrying. Koso was ordered by a judge last year to stay away from the girl. He was a friend of her half-brother, and they began a relationship when she was 12.

Richardson County Judge Curtis Maschman issued the protection order Sept. 29 against Koso at the request of the girl's mother. But after the girl became pregnant, her mother gave permission for Koso to take her to Kansas to marry her in May.

The girl is now 14 and is expected to begin high school following the anticipated birth of the baby in August, according to the Omaha World-Herald.

Bruning charged Koso on Monday with first-degree sexual assault, punishable by up to 50 years in prison. He was released on bail pending an Aug. 17 preliminary hearing in Richardson County Court.

"He should have been charged," said Walter Thiessen, executive director at the Wichita Child Guidance Center. "It's statutory rape whether he gets married or not."

Under Kansas law, a girl under the age of 16 cannot consent to having sex -- unless she is married. That has prompted some troubling conversations at the guidance center with girls who are involved with adults, Thiessen said.

"We've heard that before... 'Can we get around it by just getting married?' " he said.

The answer is "no."

"We tell them, 'You weren't married when you had the sex. The older person still broke the law,' " Thiessen said.

He has many questions as he reflects on the issue of minors getting married, Thiessen said, but few answers.

"How do we protect our young people?" he asked. "What do we do not to encourage this kind of behavior?"

Parental responsibility

McArthur, of the Kansas Children's Service League, said the real question is, "is it the law that needs to dictate this or is it the culture and parental responsibility?

"I'm not sure that it's the law that's going to prevent this from happening."

When she learned of the Nebraska couple, she said, she asked herself, "How did the child get to the point that it was OK to be dating this 22-year-old, and once she got pregnant, that the parents saw this as the solution?"

Some constituents may not like the Legislature messing with the marriage bill as a matter of principle, Ward said, and he understands that.

"We don't want the state interfering with the parent-child relationship if we don't have to," he said.

Rep. Judith Loganbill, D-Wichita, said she expects any debate over the marriage law to languish on the back burner while the Legislature wrestles with the budget and school finance. But she still considers it worthwhile.

"It raises a whole lot of questions," she said.

But that's probably a good thing, she said.

"Maybe it's a can of worms that needed to be opened."

Contributing: Associated Press[/quote]

Edited September 14, 2005 by Oik

[skellmeyer]

[quote name='Brother Adam' date='Sep 14 2005, 11:43 AM']I also wonder if it is a good thing that children are 'children' longer today? That people typically don't 'mature' until early 20's, if they ever do mature? I wonder if we should enact a law that everyone who turns 18 should do 2 years of military service (excepting conditions where this would not be appropriate such as mental retardation or medical handicap)?
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Look, the whole idea of adolescence was created in about 1904. It didn't exist prior to that time.

Adolescence is not something that can be rooted out of this society. Capitalism is built on the concept. In a capitalist society, the point of business is to separate you from your money as quickly as possible.

The easiest way to do that is to make sure you stay emotionally, intellectually and spiritually immature. Immature people spend a lot more money than mature, stable adults do.

So, the entire focus of our society is maintaining people in an immature state for as long as possible. The schools are designed to make people life-long apprentices, needy, obedient to secular authority and separated from their families. The magazines, the news media, all the rest of it works by keeping you in a constant state of fear.

Scared people buy more stuff than people who aren't scared.

I've got a book on this coming out called "Deception: Catholic Education in America" that chronicles exactly how this mindset deceived the American bishops into developing a parochial school system that was inadvertently built to fail from its inception (www.bridegroompress.com). It will be out by the first week of October, if the index gets finished this week. I've already got raves on it from a couple of rather prominent Catholics.

[son_of_angels]

Look, you people are nuts. This type of thinking allows us to discredit the institution of marriage altogether. For better or worse, they're married, end of discussion. They have comitted no crime which is intrinsically harmful to society, and by their marriage are living in the life designated for parents by God.

The child deserves a father and a mother, not just any father and mother, not the BEST father and mother, but HIS father and mother. If they live in accordance with God's plan for marriage, they will be a great gift for God in their charity for one another.

If, however, we are willing, without good cause, to separate a family, break up a marriage, distort our understanding of life and the family past the breaking point just to conform to human traditions and superstitions, we destroy the fabric of our faith. There is no hatred, no loneliness, no deprivation now, why should we create it?