Don John of Austria Posted September 14, 2005 Share Posted September 14, 2005 [quote name='Carrie' date='Sep 14 2005, 08:45 AM']Don John, while that may have been the norm in the past, it is no longer the norm. Now, it is illegal and considered to be deviant behavior. A grown man having sexual relations with a child under the age of 13 is considered pedophilia. It is also statuatory rape if the girl consented. [right][snapback]722800[/snapback][/right] [/quote] So you are infact saying that most of the men in the history of the world have been pedophiles including probably St. Joseph. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carrie Posted September 14, 2005 Share Posted September 14, 2005 [quote name='Don John of Austria' date='Sep 14 2005, 10:47 AM']So you are infact saying that most of the men in the history of the world have been pedophiles including probably St. Joseph. [right][snapback]722801[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Stop twisting my words. I am not calling anyone a pedophile at the times when this was considered normal. It was cultural and not considered deviant behavior then. What I am saying is that in [b]today's[/b] time, this kind of behavior is considered deviant (and illegal). In today's time, it is considered statuatory rape and pedophilia. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
homeschoolmom Posted September 14, 2005 Share Posted September 14, 2005 (edited) In biblical times a 12 year old was probably completely prepared to run a household and care for children. An adult man could probably see her as good wife material. Today's 12 year old is barely capable of running a can opener. What an adult man sees in her is HIGHLY questionable... edit to add: I'm sorry to sound so negative towards today's 12 year olds... This just makes me sick... Edited September 14, 2005 by homeschoolmom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carrie Posted September 14, 2005 Share Posted September 14, 2005 [quote name='homeschoolmom' date='Sep 14 2005, 10:50 AM']In biblical times a 12 year old was probably completely prepared to run a household and care for children. An adult man could probably see her as good wife material. Today's 12 year old is barely capable of running a can opener. What an adult man sees in her is HIGHLY questionable... edit to add: I'm sorry to sound so negative towards today's 12 year olds... This just makes me sick... [right][snapback]722806[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Birgitta Noel Posted September 14, 2005 Share Posted September 14, 2005 I think that it is important to realise that he is developmentally disabled, or something like that as well ( I don't have time to read the article again, I read it a while back, but I know it mentions something like that) so he also probably lacks the normal capacity a 20 year old would have..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
homeschoolmom Posted September 14, 2005 Share Posted September 14, 2005 [quote name='Birgitta Noel' date='Sep 14 2005, 08:53 AM']I think that it is important to realise that he is developmentally disabled, or something like that as well ( I don't have time to read the article again, I read it a while back, but I know it mentions something like that) so he also probably lacks the normal capacity a 20 year old would have..... [right][snapback]722812[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Oh swell... so who's the adult in this budding little family? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don John of Austria Posted September 14, 2005 Share Posted September 14, 2005 [quote name='homeschoolmom' date='Sep 14 2005, 08:50 AM']In biblical times a 12 year old was probably completely prepared to run a household and care for children. An adult man could probably see her as good wife material. Today's 12 year old is barely capable of running a can opener. What an adult man sees in her is HIGHLY questionable... [right][snapback]722806[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Well actually a 12 year old girl today is, physically speaking, much much more developed, menarche happens at an earlier time now than ever before in history, girls are developing secondary sexual characteristics earlier as well. I am certianly not arguing that this is or should be normal, but that doesn't mean it's rape. And you don't have to go back to biblical times try the 19th and early 20th century in America. Later in other parts of the world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
homeschoolmom Posted September 14, 2005 Share Posted September 14, 2005 [quote name='Don John of Austria' date='Sep 14 2005, 08:56 AM']Well actually a 12 year old girl today is, physically speaking, much much more developed,[b] menarche happens at an earlier time now than ever before in history, [/b]girls are developing secondary sexual characteristics earlier as well. I am certianly not arguing that this is or should be normal, but that doesn't mean it's rape. And you don't have to go back to biblical times try the 19th and early 20th century in America. Later in other parts of the world. [right][snapback]722817[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Yeah, don't remind me... That still doesn't make a person prepared for motherhood.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carrie Posted September 14, 2005 Share Posted September 14, 2005 [quote name='Birgitta Noel' date='Sep 14 2005, 10:53 AM']I think that it is important to realise that he is developmentally disabled, or something like that as well ( I don't have time to read the article again, I read it a while back, but I know it mentions something like that) so he also probably lacks the normal capacity a 20 year old would have..... [right][snapback]722812[/snapback][/right] [/quote] That is a good point. But we need to remember that many offenders have some sort of disability. They are still responsible for their crimes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sojourner Posted September 14, 2005 Share Posted September 14, 2005 When I worked in the teen mom's program, we had an 11 year old who had a baby. She kept the little girl and lived with her parents. It was ... scary to see her with the child. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don John of Austria Posted September 14, 2005 Share Posted September 14, 2005 [quote name='Carrie' date='Sep 14 2005, 08:50 AM']Stop twisting my words. I am not calling anyone a pedophile at the times when this was considered normal. It was cultural and not considered deviant behavior then. What I am saying is that in [b]today's[/b] time, this kind of behavior is considered deviant (and illegal). In today's time, it is considered statuatory rape and pedophilia. [right][snapback]722805[/snapback][/right] [/quote] I am not twisting your words at all. I simply responded to the words you typed, now you have changed the words, you have added concidered which is a nice relativist word, so what you are saying is that there is no actual definition for pedophilia and that if the APA where to change the defenition to say under 6 then that would then be what made someone a pedaphile. At least I know where your coming from now. I would not use such a relativistic approach I would say a pedophile is : An adult who is sexually attracted to a child or children. this would be dependent on the onset of puberty and the rate of development of the adolescent. Obviously she was not physically a child---- SHE GOT PREGNANT. So why this may be illegal, it is not pedophilia. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carrie Posted September 14, 2005 Share Posted September 14, 2005 [quote name='Don John of Austria' date='Sep 14 2005, 11:04 AM']Obviously she was not physically a child---- SHE GOT PREGNANT. So why this may be illegal, it is not pedophilia. [right][snapback]722831[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Physically a child or not physically a child, according to the law, she is A CHILD! Which would make the man's behavior to be of a pedophilic type. [quote]Obviously she was not physically a child---- SHE GOT PREGNANT. So why this may be illegal, it is not pedophilia.[/quote] I, and the law, do not agree with you. The rate at which a child develops should, in no way, determine when he/she should be considered grown. Emotional growth and physical growth are two separate things and usually are not in perfect sync with one another. In this country, a child is not considered physically and emotionally grown until the age of 18 (and even that is blurry). And now I'm a relativist. A few weeks ago I was a materialist. I'm amused. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don John of Austria Posted September 14, 2005 Share Posted September 14, 2005 [quote name='Carrie' date='Sep 14 2005, 09:15 AM']Physically a child or not physically a child, according to the law, she is A CHILD! Which would make the man's behavior to be of a pedophilic type. I, and the law, do not agree with you. The rate at which a child develops should, in no way, determine when he/she should be considered grown. Emotional growth and physical growth are two separate things and usually are not in perfect sync with one another. In this country, a child is not considered physically and emotionally grown until the age of 18 (and even that is blurry). And now I'm a relativist. A few weeks ago I was a materialist. I'm amused. [right][snapback]722855[/snapback][/right] [/quote] No I didn't say you where a relativist I said considered was a relativist word. And the arguement you are making is a relativist one, ou are saying that what a pedophile is can change withthe whims of the times, what exactly would that be other htan a Relativist arguement--- unless you are a historisist and are arguing that Truth is itself fluid and changes withthe low of history. And for the record you are wrong about being concidered an adult at 18, in virtually every state you are concidered an adult at the instant of your marriage, it is called having you disabilities as a minor removed. A 14 year old girl can get married in Texas with her parents consent the moment she does she is an adult and even if she gets a divorce she is still an adult, she cannot vote because that is determined by age not majority, but she can contract for goods and labor, consent to medical care and the like, she is not restricted by curfews or anything else, because legally she is an adult. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don John of Austria Posted September 14, 2005 Share Posted September 14, 2005 Can we ask a moderator to move this to debate where it belongs? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carrie Posted September 14, 2005 Share Posted September 14, 2005 [quote name='Don John of Austria' date='Sep 14 2005, 11:24 AM']No I didn't say you where a relativist I said considered was a relativist word. And the arguement you are making is a relativist one, ou are saying that what a pedophile is can change withthe whims of the times, what exactly would that be other htan a Relativist arguement--- unless you are a historisist and are arguing that Truth is itself fluid and changes withthe low of history. And for the record you are wrong about being concidered an adult at 18, in virtually every state you are concidered an adult at the instant of your marriage, it is called having you disabilities as a minor removed. A 14 year old girl can get married in Texas with her parents consent the moment she does she is an adult and even if she gets a divorce she is still an adult, she cannot vote because that is determined by age not majority, but she can contract for goods and labor, consent to medical care and the like, she is not restricted by curfews or anything else, because legally she is an adult. [right][snapback]722870[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Let's just say I'm a Carrie-ist. We can blame all my faults on that. : I don't know enough about what you're saying about being considered a legal adult once married, regardless of age. Also, we don't do curfews here, so I wouldn't know about being exepmt from those also when married, regardless of age. I'm going to have to look that up. (see, I can admit when I'm unsure of something). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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