Norseman82 Posted September 15, 2005 Posted September 15, 2005 [quote name='Don John of Austria' date='Sep 15 2005, 03:15 PM']NA I just do a lot of cooking : [right][snapback]724547[/snapback][/right] [/quote] I think you meant to post that in this thread??? [url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=39050"]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=39050[/url] J/K
Socrates Posted September 15, 2005 Posted September 15, 2005 [quote name='Aloysius' date='Sep 15 2005, 01:17 AM']in response to Socrates, I was critiqueing our entire culture, including the part that raises children to not be ready, including the economic part that makes it nearly impossible for them to be financially prepared, including the entire society that produces these things you cite as reasons people should not be married so young. people were able to be mature enough in other eras, and they still are in other cultures. that is because the family raised them to be prepared by that point. that is because the society was conducive to them being able to be financially prepared at that point. Our culture transgresses natural law by not preparing our children to be ready for marriage sooner to their sexual maturity. [right][snapback]724036[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Forget the economic part of my post for a bit. I would actually hold that as the least important part of my critique of 12 year olds getting married. Even if 12-year-olds had a source of sufficient wealth or income (such as rich families) they would still lack the necessary maturity to raise a family. Most would lack the maturity to manage or spend their money responsibly. Look around at any twelve-year-olds. Do you really think they are ready to start a family? They are far from mature psychologically or even physically. Science shows that the brain, particularly the part responsible for rational decision making, does not fully mature until the twenties. And while many have pointed out the dangers associated with having children late in life, there are alos physical risks associated with very young motherhood. While you will probably argue that all this is because of "cultural conditioning," any casual observation fo real twelve-year-olds will tell you that these are not adults. I'd agree that kids should be taught more responsibility, but I do not think this would justify twelve-year-olds getting married. And for those arguing that kids should be marrying and having sex as soon as physically possible, would this mean because of the increasingly early onset of puberty (caused by hormones and chemicals), prematurely pubescent eight or nine year olds should be getting hitched? And if postponing sex is wrong because it is "unnatural," then would you argue against celibacy for priests or religious as unnatural? God forbid that people people should have to restrain their natural urges! Forget ideology for a second, and look at the real world. Do you think your twelve-year-old sisters or brothers are ready for marriage? If you have a twelve-year-old daughter, would you want her getting married at that age? What would you say to some guy who wanted to marry her? Would you trust her maturity to make a life-long decision at this point? Would you really think an older man wanting to marry your twelve year old daughter would be likely motivated out of pure love, or would you consider him a creep trying to take advantage of a child? Wuold you have wanted to be raised by young teenage parents? Anwer these questions honestly or not at all. Think about it. I guess I've said all I want to say about this, but I honestly find it really disturbing that so many here are arguing for pubescent marriage. If I was a newby, I might have wondered if I'd stumbled into a pedophile forum. Y'all can go back to arguing about eating pork.
Thumper Posted September 15, 2005 Posted September 15, 2005 NB: This is not DJ's entire quote--sorry I haven't figured out how to "snip" yet. At any rate: [quote name='Don John of Austria' date='Sep 14 2005, 11:52 PM'] I think the age of majorty should probably be 16 instead of 18 but that is a differnant arguement. To answer the specifics of your question I think that it is quite irrelevant because there is no issue at all here about her ability to give consent, if he were 16 and she 14 ( which would nhave made him 15 when they had sex ) this wouldn't be an issue at all. This has to do with age differance which is a BS cultural distinction. [/quote] So, you think the age of majority should be 16 instead of 18. OK. Why wait until 16? Why not earlier? By arguing for an age of majority, are you not saying that there is a difference in maturity (and thus the capacity to give consent) between being a minor and being an adult? It seems to me that the adult has a different responsibility for asking a 13 year old to engage in sexual intercourse (without the benefits of marriage and parental consent) than would a fellow 13 year old.
Don John of Austria Posted September 16, 2005 Posted September 16, 2005 [quote name='Thumper' date='Sep 15 2005, 05:16 PM']NB: This is not DJ's entire quote--sorry I haven't figured out how to "snip" yet. At any rate: So, you think the age of majority should be 16 instead of 18. OK. Why wait until 16? Why not earlier? By arguing for an age of majority, are you not saying that there is a difference in maturity (and thus the capacity to give consent) between being a minor and being an adult? It seems to me that the adult has a different responsibility for asking a 13 year old to engage in sexual intercourse (without the benefits of marriage and parental consent) than would a fellow 13 year old. [right][snapback]724743[/snapback][/right] [/quote] But once agian I never said that he wasn't guilty of stautory rape, I said that the marriage was fine, and that the act was not one of pedophilia. As for the adult vs. 13 year old question no, I don't think that is necessarly so, so 13 year olds are adults, and all of the know right and wrong. All of them that are not insane of course. Ithink the trend to excuse 13 and 14 year olds from there decision is detrimental to society in general and to said teenagers in the particular as well. Now to why there should be an age of majority, because there has to be some point at which we say that you are an adult, our society does not have the capacity to fairly judge such things on a case by case basis. A parent does have such a capacity and can therefore consent to a marraige of someone who has not reached that arbitrary age. They can then allow that person to marry and therefore become an adult legally.
homeschoolmom Posted September 16, 2005 Posted September 16, 2005 Man, I thought this thread was dead and buried. A 14 year old mother can't even drive her child to doctor's appointments etc. She is completely dependent upon the adults in her life to still take care of her... She's not ready to fully take care of another.
Don John of Austria Posted September 16, 2005 Posted September 16, 2005 [quote name='homeschoolmom' date='Sep 16 2005, 08:27 AM']Man, I thought this thread was dead and buried. A 14 year old mother can't even drive her child to doctor's appointments etc. She is completely dependent upon the adults in her life to still take care of her... She's not ready to fully take care of another. [right][snapback]725377[/snapback][/right] [/quote] She can in Texas all she has to do is get a hardship license. It's not really that hard.
homeschoolmom Posted September 16, 2005 Posted September 16, 2005 [quote name='Don John of Austria' date='Sep 16 2005, 08:29 AM']She can in Texas all she has to do is get a hardship license. It's not really that hard. [right][snapback]725382[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Oh good grief. I really doubt that having 14 year olds driving around is a great thing. Maybe driving on rural roads from their farm back to the barn... but crimany. You really want to fill the streets of Houston with 14 year old drivers?
Don John of Austria Posted September 16, 2005 Posted September 16, 2005 [quote name='homeschoolmom' date='Sep 16 2005, 09:00 AM']Oh good grief. I really doubt that having 14 year olds driving around is a great thing. Maybe driving on rural roads from their farm back to the barn... but crimany. You really want to fill the streets of Houston with 14 year old drivers? [right][snapback]725432[/snapback][/right] [/quote] you haven't driven much here have you, I don't see how 14 year olds could be any worse that te average 40 year old on the West end of town.
homeschoolmom Posted September 16, 2005 Posted September 16, 2005 [quote name='Don John of Austria' date='Sep 16 2005, 09:08 AM']you haven't driven much here have you, I don't see how 14 year olds could be any worse that te average 40 year old on the West end of town. [right][snapback]725437[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Fine. That's your problem. I don't want 14 year olds driving around the streets of St. Paul.
Don John of Austria Posted September 16, 2005 Posted September 16, 2005 [quote name='homeschoolmom' date='Sep 16 2005, 09:11 AM']Fine. That's your problem. I don't want 14 year olds driving around the streets of St. Paul. [right][snapback]725440[/snapback][/right] [/quote] You have decent drivers there! could you send some down the the Houstons west side to teach the people there? :
homeschoolmom Posted September 16, 2005 Posted September 16, 2005 [quote name='Don John of Austria' date='Sep 16 2005, 09:12 AM']You have decent drivers there! could you send some down the the Houstons west side to teach the people there? : [right][snapback]725443[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Well, yes. We do have fairly decent drivers here. But lately I've seen more and more Texas plates and it seems the courtesy has suffered...
Don John of Austria Posted September 16, 2005 Posted September 16, 2005 [quote name='homeschoolmom' date='Sep 16 2005, 09:16 AM']Well, yes. We do have fairly decent drivers here. But lately I've seen more and more Texas plates and it seems the courtesy has suffered... [right][snapback]725448[/snapback][/right] [/quote] they must be from Dallas-- thats not really part of Texas. But I suppose they could be from West Houston, but comfort yourself withthe knowledge that if it is, they aren't intentionally being rude, they just can't drive.
homeschoolmom Posted September 16, 2005 Posted September 16, 2005 [quote name='Don John of Austria' date='Sep 16 2005, 09:36 AM']they must be from Dallas-- thats not really part of Texas. But I suppose they could be from West Houston, but comfort yourself withthe knowledge that if it is, they aren't intentionally being rude, they just can't drive. [right][snapback]725472[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Oh swell... that's really comforting.
Don John of Austria Posted September 16, 2005 Posted September 16, 2005 [quote name='homeschoolmom' date='Sep 16 2005, 09:42 AM'] Oh swell... that's really comforting. [right][snapback]725479[/snapback][/right] [/quote] I thought that would make you feel better.
homeschoolmom Posted September 16, 2005 Posted September 16, 2005 [quote name='Don John of Austria' date='Sep 16 2005, 10:02 AM']I thought that would make you feel better. [right][snapback]725515[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Yeah, remind me to stay out of West Houston... though I can't imagine under what circumstances I'd find myself there...
Don John of Austria Posted September 16, 2005 Posted September 16, 2005 [quote name='homeschoolmom' date='Sep 16 2005, 10:06 AM']Yeah, remind me to stay out of West Houston... though I can't imagine under what circumstances I'd find myself there... [right][snapback]725521[/snapback][/right] [/quote] No you should aways stay on the east end, better food, nicer people, better drivers, less snoody.
Ora et Labora Posted September 16, 2005 Posted September 16, 2005 [quote name='Carrie' date='Sep 14 2005, 01:46 PM']He was 20 years old. By law, that makes him an adult. [right][snapback]723210[/snapback][/right] [/quote] That does not make him mature! Kristina
skellmeyer Posted September 16, 2005 Posted September 16, 2005 [quote name='homeschoolmom' date='Sep 16 2005, 09:27 AM']Man, I thought this thread was dead and buried. A 14 year old mother can't even drive her child to doctor's appointments etc. She is completely dependent upon the adults in her life to still take care of her... She's not ready to fully take care of another. [right][snapback]725377[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Uh, this took place in Nebraska and Kansas. In those states, if I recall correctly, anyone 12 or older can drive rural machinery on the roads. Now, I'm not recommending she get a tractor in order to ferry her child back and forth to the doctor's office, but I am pointing out that the driving age has a certain elasticity to it when the local society feels the need is there. Besides, there are a lot of people who have kids and can't afford cars. They take a bus, a subway, a taxi - they're dependent on adults to take care of them too. Indeed, all of us are dependent on adults who take care of us. I'm dependent on the store manager at the SuperWalmart and the Krogers, on my doctor and dentist, on my priest. Paul talks about this in 1 Corinthians 12, I believe, and he approves. I can't fully take care of my kids. I don't know dentristy, the state won't permit me to prescribe medications, and I can't absolve them of their sins. Does that mean I'm not fully an adult?
Carrie Posted September 16, 2005 Posted September 16, 2005 [quote name='Ora et Labora' date='Sep 16 2005, 01:06 PM']That does not make him mature! Kristina [right][snapback]725619[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Maturity is subjective and therefore would be very difficult to define by law. So we go with what the law defines an adults as: age 18 or above.
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