Protestantism is Heresy.

[thessalonian]

It seems to me that in the Catholic view of evangelization where we recognize that we are about planting seeds while understanding God is the final judge there is a certain amount of freedom in knowing that we cannot judge. My impression of Protestant evengelism is that it's almost as if the person isn't converted on the spot he is in hell for all eternity. We must realize we are one cog in the wheel in the process of bringing one to Christ, to the Church. One ray of light where there may be many on their path. A ray in the darkened room of their lives. Perhaps a ray that will cause them to open the curtains and let the morning sun shine in, or perhaps close those curtains for a time to get some more sleep but then later remebering that light and opening those curtains up. We are not the Savior, but simply his messanger. Perhaps only preparing the seedbed. Softening it before the seed gets planted. Or perhaps our part is planting the seed, but as Paul stated, letting Apollos water it and letting the Lord make it grow. Letting another harvest the fruit from the seed we have planted. Realizing after all is said and done, it was all God's grace and power in us and others anyway.

Edited November 17, 2005 by thessalonian

[tojo]

[quote name='Era Might' date='Nov 14 2005, 09:30 AM']What a coincidence. I just posted something from Benedict XVI in another thread dealing with this question.

As he explains, Protestantism is not heresy in the traditional sense:
He's careful to note that an error "cannot simply become true".  Protestantism, as a Christian entity, has not simply been purified of all error. But it does not have the "obstinacy" that characterized its originators. Heresy is traditionally understood as an obstinate opposition to Catholicism. Protestantism today is not a new obstinate break from the Church. Rather, Protestant believers have received their faith, inherited it, and they do not live as obstinate enemies of the Church, but, as Ratzinger notes, their existence is a "positive ecclesial nature". So while individual points of doctrine Protestants hold may be materially heretical, Protestantism as a living structure is not heresy, but an incomplete, although still positive, Christian body. This means that the average Christian who has been brought up in a Protestant ecclesial community "lives as a believer, not as a heretic". As I said, he is not an obstinate enemy of the Church in the traditional sense. He is a fellow Christian, with whom patient dialogue is key.
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HOORAH!!!!!!!!!!!!


Poor Zigg, we came into the Church in the same RCIA class. I think many converts have times in which we get very frustrated with Protestantism and condemn all their churches as cults, I know I have a couple times. Then I calm down and adopt an attitude more in line with the quote above.

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read "is the reformation over"by mark Noll or "Mother church' by Braaten(Dullies even does a review on this)

the theory is that there isnt a protest, the problem is different eccesiological bodies that need to hook back up.

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btw, Mark Noll is perhaps the top protestant historian, and Braaten is a catholic eccesiological theologian who works with evangelical/catholic relations. This is also the field I am getting trained to work in

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btw...like the sig?

[Matty_boy]

I gotta say, what those Protestants lack in theology, grace, sacraments, etc. they sure make up for in ultimate frizbee skills.

[phatcatholic]

haha, that's for sure!

[Ziggamafu]

[quote name='Matty_boy' date='Dec 2 2005, 10:51 AM']I gotta say, what those Protestants lack in theology, grace, sacraments, etc. they sure make up for in ultimate frizbee skills.
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You forgot to mention that your avatar is from a friggen' SWEET anime. Tell me you watch the fansubs!

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[quote name='Matty_boy' date='Dec 2 2005, 11:51 AM']I gotta say, what those Protestants lack in theology, grace, sacraments, etc. they sure make up for in ultimate frizbee skills.
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hate to break the pride button but I would dare say that there are topics or at least theologians that are better in their field than what we have in the church. Remember these are believers that are also givin the gifts of the spirit. I would like to see a catholic with the impact of a cs lewis, or the devotions of a Max luciado. Or someone who steps up fast yet understandable like a Greg Boyd. A historian with no prejudice like Mark Noll, or an eccesilogy ecumenist like Braaten a pneumatologist like Yancy. I mean really as a hybrid I see this but pentacostals for what they lack in generally everything they slaughter in their awareness of the spirt and the gifts that He blesses with. Besides L.T.J. who steped up against the Jesus Seminar? Protestants are hardly lacking in their theology ability

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oh, and they do slaughter at ultimate frisbee..


does this get me a phisy yet? Or maybe we should make a "hybrid" just to warn people

[Laudate_Dominum]

In our own time the impact of John Paul II and Mother Teresa stands out in my mind. I cant' think of any protestants who would seem to be in this class.

When I read your post a few names popped into my mind. But I don't really think it's fair to compare. But for what its worth:

I would like to see a catholic with the impact of a cs lewis
St Augustine
St Thomas
St Gregory the Great

or the devotions of a Max luciado.
St Faustina
St Teresa of Avila
St Francis de Sales

Or someone who steps up fast yet understandable like a Greg Boyd.
Cardinal Newman
Chesterton
Irenaeus

A historian with no prejudice like Mark Noll,
Christopher Dawson

or an eccesilogy ecumenist like Braaten
Dulles
Johann Mohler

a pneumatologist like Yancy.
St Basil
Kolbe

I mean really as a hybrid I see this but pentacostals for what they lack in generally everything they slaughter in their awareness of the spirt and the gifts that He blesses with.
St Benedict
St John of the Cross
Padre Pio

Besides L.T.J. who steped up against the Jesus Seminar?
Countless Catholic scholars have engaged the Jesus Seminar quacks.

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ok, LD...maybe I should rephrase this..who is doin something"now" protestant claim access to augustine, to thomas because they feel that they were theologians before catholic became roman.

Also, CS lewis took theology and explained it to laymen. That has not been seen anywhere else to that level.

Your devotion people are great...but, um..their dead. And luciodo is crankin out books that take our times and find faith in them. Same as Eldridge. I dont see this coming from the church

the bulldogs(boyd) you mentioned, well, Irenaeus cant do much to the common debates cause he is dead. and like I said before protestants use the fathers also.

catholics are oftened picked on for their lack of pneutology. This is more of fluff's arena, but I hear it often.

My point LD..wasnt that protestants are able to be on their own, but rather they got some weapons that would prove to be a great assist to our party. They are hardly not gifted in theology. JPII did some great work, but the average believer isnt gonna read "theology of the body" and understand anything.
(I know, I gave it to some peeps)

closest thing I can think of is Kreeft, but I just wish we would put down our arms and use both sides here. WHat would the catholic equal to "letters from a skeptic" be? Or the Rick warren "40 days" devottion?

[phatcatholic]

whether or not they are alive or dead is irrelevant. if they are catholic and they continue to have a strong impact on catholics then they remain the best that catholicism has to offer. your influence doesn't die with you.

at any rate, here are some living catholic authors and theologians to compare to the protestant theologians you have provided. note that i have no doubt that there are very wise and capable men from the various protestant traditions. but their message will always be deficient to the degree in which they are separate from the Church. i also think you severely under-estimate what Catholicism has to offer in the way of great minds and learned individuals.

[quote]a catholic with the impact of a cs lewis . . . . CS lewis took theology and explained it to laymen. That has not been seen anywhere else to that level[/quote]
what about Scott Hahn and Karl Keating? i can't think of anyone presently who has been so proficient at bringing catholic theology to the laity like these two men. also, since c.s. lewis is dead, i feel that i can present a deceased counterpart. how about Fulton Sheen? i dare say sheen's influence was greater.


[quote]the devotions of a Max luciado[/quote]
how about benedict groeschel and henry nouwen? catholics and protestants alike are in love with their devotions (especially nouwen). deceased counterpart: thomas merton.


[quote]someone who steps up fast yet understandable like a Greg Boyd . . . . the bulldogs(boyd) you mentioned, well, Irenaeus cant do much to the common debates cause he is dead. and like I said before protestants use the fathers also.[/quote]
how about ratzinger? there's hardly a bull much like "the rat" robert sungenis is quite the bulldog as well. deceased counterpart: St. Francis de Sales.


[quote]A historian with no prejudice like Mark Noll[/quote]
i submit William H. Carroll and William A. Jurgens. their works on the history of christianity are unparalleled. deceased counterpart: Eusebius.


[quote]an eccesilogy ecumenist like Braaten[/quote]
LD already provided two. i would like to add Richard John Neuhaus. his name must be mentioned in any conversation about evangelical catholicism and ecumenism. deceased counterpart: Pope John Paul the Great


[quote]a pneumatologist like Yancy. . . . I mean really as a hybrid I see this but pentacostals for what they lack in generally everything they slaughter in their awareness of the spirt and the gifts that He blesses with. . . . [/quote]
i'm not very well-acquainted w/ the charistmatic movement in the church, but i trust L_D's recommendations


[quote]Besides L.T.J. who steped up against the Jesus Seminar? [/quote]
William G. Most!!!! he died only recently, so i don't know if you will accept him or not. but, he was amazingly prolific in his life, writing hundreds of articles in different publications on biblical criticism. he was very vocal against their methods. a brilliant man.


again, i don't doubt that there are some great minds in other faiths. but i would hesitate to ever say that protestants have "one up" on catholics in ANY area. the mere fulness of truth is in our favor.

just my 0.02

pax chrisit,
phatcatholic

[Era Might]

[quote]Also, CS lewis took theology and explained it to laymen. That has not been seen anywhere else to that level.[/quote]

Two words:

Frank Sheed.

Another two words:

Mother Angelica.



[quote]I just wish we would put down our arms and use both sides here. [/quote]

There's nothing wrong with "using both sides", but it must be tempered. There's no doubt that there are many Protestant (and even non-Christian) thinkers who we can benefit from. Plato and Aristotle are the greatest examples. But the best of their work must be absorbed into a Catholic framework, and the insufficiencies must be recognized as such.

[Era Might]

And great modern thinkers abound in the Church, from Hans Urs Von Balthasar and Joseph Ratzinger, to Joseph Pieper, Henri de Lubac, and Mortimer Adler.

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Im not saying they are better, they just have tools that would be a great help to the church.

I have read ratz, but I can hand my 16yr old sister mere christianity and see can understand it, where as not with "introduction to christanity" also, Hahn compared to cs lewis? Please..are you serious? thats like a knick fan sayin marbury is the best pg just cause he wears the threads, its being a "homer"

as a protestant theologian before the revert I would have not known whom many of those people are. Which means they are not reaching into the masses like they should be. Even with the Jesus seminar issue(in which I had much interest with Boyd) the only catholic whom I saw who did anything was Luke tim Johnson.

"theology and sanity" by sheed is great, but doesnt touch Lewis. I also doubt that sheen had the effect that lewis did. To the masses that statement is just being a homer

[phatcatholic]

pssht..........whatever...........i'm not gonna debate it since debate isn't allowed here. suffice it to say i find you sadly mistaken.

[phatcatholic]

moving this to the debate table......

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:'(

its dialogue, not debate...Im just makin sure people dont think of protestants as an offbranch feces and instead as members of the family that we have fought with and dont return home for christimas

[Era Might]

[quote]Im not saying they are better, they just have tools that would be a great help to the church.[/quote]

Sure they do. That's why Catholics are among the biggest fans of CS Lewis. But the focus of higher thinkers is more conspicuous in what it lacks from a Catholic perspective. Sure, it might be beneficial to read a Protestant theologian's thoughts on Ecclesiology. But at the end of the day, the average Catholic isn't looking to compare higher thinkers. They want to learn what the Church teaches. Comparative studies are fine for theologians and bookish people. But Joe in the pew just wants to learn more about his own faith, not someone else's.

[quote]"theology and sanity" by sheed is great, but doesnt touch Lewis.[/quote]

I would take Sheed over Lewis any day. Lewis is a fine defender of the Christian faith. Sheed is a better defender of the Catholic faith. And at the end of the day, it is the Catholic Christian faith I am most concerned about.

You can call me a "homer" if you want. But you are confusing people's roles. You're comparing the Roman empire with the United States. The Roman empire was great in its context, but the United States is greater in a different context. The Romans had a lot of inventions we have inherited. But they don't compare to the tools at the hands of the United States.

Edited December 5, 2005 by Era Might