Protestantism is Heresy.

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Cs Lewis took advanced concepts and explained them in a way that a 17yrold could read and come to a moving faith. I have read Theology and Sanity, its a great book, but it doesnt touch to what lewis did in Mere christianity, or in screwtape.

I use both, Im sorry if this "dialogue" got out of context. I just felt offended that people were saying protestants are all lacking in grace and theology and "could only play ultimate frisbee"

[Era Might]

Well, Protestants do objectively lack grace (the Sacraments) and theology (Catholic dogmatics). But I think the comment was meant humorously, not as a polemical jab at Protestants.

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I would argue that they lack foundations to build theology on, and perhaps some of the tools..and clearly the accountability(woah) but not in the ability to explore and develop theology.

If they are "so lacking in grace" how come as JPII says we see the spirit in the church? Perhaps the spirit gives them grace in a different way? Has anyone ever done some great pneutology in the function the HS relates to the protestant churches? Im not downing the sacrments and I feel those churches are hurting themselves by not having them. yet they still come to a saving grace

btw...in my study and relations with protestants is that lack of accountability with each other in doctrine, and lack of convesion hurts deeply.

yet, the lack of a "personal relationship" seen in the common catholic hurts them as well.

hmm, bring the family together

Edited December 5, 2005 by Revprodeji

[The Joey-O]

Era Might, you're a good guy.

The Problem: The majority of Protestants aren't in protest of the church, especially in the evangelical, free church community. They see Catholics as Christians. The problem is, the majority of those same free church protestants don't know a single Catholic who's worth their salt. Before I met my fiance, I didn't know a Catholic that was even a decent human being. What I knew about Catholicism just 4 years ago: a lot of people who felt forced to go to church on Christmas and Easter and figured that was enough to get them to Purgatory where they'd wait out their sentence til they could go to Heaven. Every sin, every evil deed imaginable (save some especially bad sins, like murder and rape; surprisingly enough, premarrital sex wasn't included in this category) was excusable through confession and purgatory. I'm not saying Protestantism is preferrable, because I found that if you look hard enough, you'll find good Catholics. However, it's easy to blow off becoming Catholic. Especially, if you don't take your time to research into the Church.

[littleflower+JMJ]

[quote name='The Joey-O' date='Dec 5 2005, 02:06 AM']Era Might, you're a good guy.

The Problem: The majority of Protestants aren't in protest of the church, especially in the evangelical, free church community. They see Catholics as Christians. The problem is, the majority of those same free church protestants don't know a single Catholic who's worth their salt. Before I met my fiance, I didn't know a Catholic that was even a decent human being. What I knew about Catholicism just 4 years ago: a lot of people who felt forced to go to church on Christmas and Easter and figured that was enough to get them to Purgatory where they'd wait out their sentence til they could go to Heaven. Every sin, every evil deed imaginable (save some especially bad sins, like murder and rape; surprisingly enough, premarrital sex wasn't included in this category) was excusable through confession and purgatory. I'm not saying Protestantism is preferrable, because I found that if you look hard enough, you'll find good Catholics. However, it's easy to blow off becoming Catholic. Especially, if you don't take your time to research into the Church.
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many times we experience the same thing but with protestants

I think theres some in every circle

[Era Might]

[quote]I would argue that they lack foundations to build theology on, and perhaps some of the tools..and clearly the accountability(woah) but not in the ability to explore and develop theology.[/quote]

Their beliefs are, in certain points, fundamentally at odds with the Catholic faith. We don't need to tip toe around that reality. Their theology is wrong in some ways, from a Catholic perspective. But, as I said, the story doesnt' have to end there. Ecumenism is a way, as the Holy Father says in "The Ratzinger Report", to take what is good, and overcome what is non-Catholic.

[quote]If they are "so lacking in grace" how come as JPII says we see the spirit in the church? [/quote]

The Spirit is everywhere. His grace is not limited to the Sacraments, nor even to Christianity.

Nevertheless, the Sacraments are the ordinary and supreme means of grace established by God. It's one thing to greet God with a holy kiss in prayer; it's quite another to receive his flesh and blood, soul and divinity.

[quote]Im not downing the sacrments and I feel those churches are hurting themselves by not having them. yet they still come to a saving grace[/quote]

"Saving grace" is not unique to Protestants. It is available to all men, even Pagans. Outside of the ordinary means of salvation (the Sacraments), the principle of invincible ignorance comes into play. Protestants are, as Joseph Ratzinger wrote in Dominus Iesus, in an objectively deficient position vis a vis salvation.

[quote]yet, the lack of a "personal relationship" seen in the common catholic hurts them as well. [/quote]

Perhaps because they have contrary notions of what a "personal relationship" is. The Catholic and Protestant mindsets are very different. A Protestant frequently cannot understand why, say, a Catholic might preach the Gospel with actions, rather than words. That's not to say words are never used, but a Protestant might be more inclined to use words. That goes back, as I said, to different mindsets.

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i hardly see devotion in catholicism to what I see in protestantism. its sad really.

[Era Might]

[quote]Before I met my fiance, I didn't know a Catholic that was even a decent human being. [/quote]

Catholicism is the foundation of Western civilization, so certainly, it will always have a large cafetaria culturalism in its midst (eg, the stereotypical Italian mobsters). But, personally speaking, when I came into the Church, I found nothing but faithful, sincere people at my parish. Not to say all of them were perfect (the DRE said women would be ordained someday). But I think that if you really experience Catholicism on a day to day level, you will find the faithful.

[Era Might]

[quote name='Revprodeji' date='Dec 5 2005, 03:30 AM']i hardly see devotion in catholicism to what I see in protestantism. its sad really.
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We must live in different worlds, because I see it every day. I love just sitting in a Church, watching people pray. I love when I see, for example, someone kneel toward the tabernacle. They're not doing it for me. They're doing it because the Lord is there, and they want to show how personal their relationship gets.

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yea, but what happens when they step out of church? protestants tend to evangelise more. Expose their faith to the world, express it in their day to day life. I just dont see that often in the church besides reverts/converts..

glory hybrids

Edited December 5, 2005 by Revprodeji

[The Joey-O]

Heavens no! Not women preists!

[Era Might]

[quote name='Revprodeji' date='Dec 5 2005, 03:47 AM']yea, but what happens when they step out of church? protestants tend to evangelise more. Expose their faith to the world, express it in their day to day life. I just dont see that often in the church besides reverts/converts..

glory hybrids
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As I said, I think this goes back to a fundamentally different mindset. Protestants tend to be a people of the Word. Catholics are a Sacramental people. Our witness is given primarily through the witness of our lives, and oral witness is secondary. "Preach the Gospel always, use words when necessary", as St. Francis famously remarked.

Edited December 5, 2005 by Era Might

[Era Might]

ps: Don't get me wrong. I am a BIG fan of John Paul's evangelization thought. George Weigel has called the Theology of the Body a "theological time bomb", but I think the real time bomb is his theology of evangelization. But I'm also realistic, and recognize that you have to respect the culture that springs from a certain ecclesial body, including my own.

[phatcatholic]

[quote name='Revprodeji' date='Dec 5 2005, 01:42 AM']Im not saying they are better, they just have tools that would be a great help to the church.

I have read ratz, but I can hand my 16yr old sister mere christianity and see can understand it, where as not with "introduction to christanity"[/quote]
you provided c.s. lewis as an example of someone bringing theology to the laity. i didn't posit ratzinger as counter-example, so i don't know why u are comparing them.


[quote]also, Hahn compared to cs lewis? Please..are you serious? thats like a knick fan sayin marbury is the best pg just cause he wears the threads, its being a "homer" [/quote]
i'm not comparing their writing styles. i agree that they are different. however, when it comes to bringing theology to the laity, scott hahn has had an amazing role in this. it seems like just about every catholic in the US knows who scott hahn is. he's one of the few catholic authors that you can find in ANY bookstore, whether the store is christian or secular. also, have you even read anything from hahn? if u haven't, then it would be premature to criticize me for using him as an example.

i also mentioned keating. find me one site on the internet that has impacted more catholics then Catholic.com. i dare say thousands have either found their faith again or converted to catholicism due to Catholic Answers, and his magazine This Rock. his book "Catholicism and Fundamentalism" is often the first Catholic book on apologetics that people EVER read. his effect on the laity has been tremendous.



[quote]as a protestant theologian before the revert I would have not known whom many of those people are. Which means they are not reaching into the masses like they should be. Even with the Jesus seminar issue(in which I had much interest with Boyd) the only catholic whom I saw who did anything was Luke tim Johnson.[/quote]
well, up to this point, we aren't talking about the most ecumenical catholics. we're talking about the catholics who have had the greatest effect on the laity, as in, the catholic laity. i've never heard of Greg Boyd, Mark Noll, or Yancy. maybe they have trouble "reaching into the masses" too



[quote]"theology and sanity" by sheed is great, but doesnt touch Lewis. I also doubt that sheen had the effect that lewis did. To the masses that statement is just being a homer[right][snapback]811314[/snapback][/right][/quote]
calling people "homers" doesn't help "dialogue" very much

pax christi,
phatcatholic

[phatcatholic]

[quote name='Revprodeji' date='Dec 5 2005, 02:30 AM']i hardly see devotion in catholicism to what I see in protestantism. its sad really.[right][snapback]811370[/snapback][/right][/quote]
maybe its b/c you go to a protestant university and you have emmersed yourself in their culture. i don't see alot of devoted protestants, but that's b/c i don't surround myself w/ them. however, i have emmersed myself in the Catholic culture here in Louisville, and i see TONS of devoted catholics.

[photosynthesis]

[quote name='Revprodeji' date='Dec 4 2005, 08:12 PM']I would like to see a catholic with the impact of a cs lewis, or the devotions of a Max luciado. Or someone who steps up fast yet understandable like a Greg Boyd. A historian with no prejudice like Mark Noll, or an eccesilogy ecumenist like Braaten a pneumatologist like Yancy. I mean really as a hybrid I see this but pentacostals for what they lack in generally everything they slaughter in their awareness of the spirt and the gifts that He blesses with. Besides L.T.J. who steped up against the Jesus Seminar? Protestants are hardly lacking in their theology ability
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still doesn't change the fact that Catholicism has the fullness of Truth and Protestantism doesn't. I'd rather hear the dry Truth from someone with a personality of a slice of toast, than hear watered-down half-truths and lies from someone who was really charismatic.

[quote name='Revprodeji' date='Dec 4 2005, 08:47 PM'] WHat would the catholic equal to "letters from a skeptic" be? Or the Rick warren "40 days" devottion?
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Do we need a Catholic equal for those things? I think there are a lot of Catholic authors, theologians and writers that are trying to bring good Catholic theology to the masses... Look at Christopher West, Jeff Cavins, Scott Hahn, Mother Angelica, Fr. Mitch Pacwa, etc. Also, my favorite modern Catholic author, George Weigel.

[photosynthesis]

plus Liturgy of the Hours kicks "40 days devotional's" butt any day.

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if you havent heard of Noll, yancy or Boyd than perhaps you are ignoring protestant lit all together. cause those are huge names in their field.

I have read about 5 of Hahns books, but the difference is CS lewis writes in a way acceptable by everyone, from catholic to pentacostals, where as the majority of educated protestants will consider hahn to be fundi.

I do need to read some keating, i have only read brief bits.

Im not dissing catholic writers, just sayin that protestants brought more than the needed "b" to the party

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dp

Edited December 5, 2005 by Revprodeji

[photosynthesis]

plus Liturgy of the Hours kicks "40 days devotional's" butt any day.