Robyn Posted December 11, 2003 Share Posted December 11, 2003 I understand that I am part of the HOLY Catholic church... I agree with the Apostles' Creed but I refuse to be ROMAN Catholic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmotherofpirl Posted December 11, 2003 Share Posted December 11, 2003 I understand that I am part of the HOLY Catholic church... I agree with the Apostles' Creed but I refuse to be ROMAN Catholic. THe Catholic Church has two main divisions : East and West (Latin). Roman is simply subdivision of the Western Church. So if you don't want to be part of te "Roman" Catholic Church you have 21 or 22 other branches to join. Take your pick :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trooper4DaHolyG Posted December 11, 2003 Share Posted December 11, 2003 So... does that give Buddhists an excuse to remain Buddhist? Even though you gave them clear facts that Jesus Christ existed and is the Son of God? I'm sorry, but by what you say on that post, is clearly inline with New Age thinking. clearly in line with new age thinking? ok read my post again! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paladin D Posted December 11, 2003 Share Posted December 11, 2003 I understand that I am part of the HOLY Catholic church... I agree with the Apostles' Creed but I refuse to be ROMAN Catholic. When the Early Church Fathers composed the Apostle's Creed, they were refering to a Church that held onto the same beliefs and traditions... worldwide. And if you study the Early Fathers, you would see that they are identical to the Catholic Church today. Protestants have taken the Apostle's Creed out of context, applying it to themselves. Also taking the term "Catholic" to refer to the entire divided body of Christians. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paladin D Posted December 11, 2003 Share Posted December 11, 2003 clearly in line with new age thinking? ok read my post again! Okiedoke. If Sammy could prove the catcheism wrong... what good would that do? You have your faith grounded in the Church fathers who have traditionaly brought to you the catcheism, so how could her mere words prove you wrong? You could come up to me (which I know you won't) give me cold hard facts that there was no Jesus Christ and that He did not die on the Cross for the remissions of my sins. I would spit at that book and the history you try to show me, my heart has been set and it will never doubt, I believe beyond knowledge.... I believe through intimacy.... Even though Protestantism isn't a different religion, I was using it as an example. Of course we both believe Jesus Christ is the Son of God who payed the price so that we maybe forgiven. But, we differ drastically on certain issues. How do we obtain Salvation? How does Grace function? Faith alone? Or Faith and Works? You see, this is a very important issue. There is only one method of obtaining Salvation and obtaining Grace (also keeping it). Not including issues such as the Eucharist, Scripture & Tradition, and so forth. It's as if there are two people who have totally seperate beliefs, but have one thing in common. IT ALMOST QUALIFIES AS A DIFFERENT RELIGION! Don't you see a problem here? So to imply that we can just "Agree to disagree", is no better than a Buddhist saying "You believe what you believe, I believe what I believe." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anna Posted December 11, 2003 Share Posted December 11, 2003 (edited) I believe the Bible is the complete and inspired Word of God But that isn't what the Bible says. I believe the Bible is the inspired word of God, yes; but complete? No. "There are also many other things that Jesus did, but if these were to be described individually, I do not think the whole world would contain the books that would be written. (John 21:25) God (Jesus) did and said many things which He wanted us to know, but which were not written down and recorded in the Bible. The New Testament writers confirm this also, instructing the early Church to both follow their letters and the traditions the Apostles were giving them. "I commend you because you remember me in everything and maintain the traditions even as I have delivered them to you" (1 Cor. 11:2) "So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter" (2 Thess. 2:15) "Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you keep away from any brother who is living in idleness and not in accord with the tradition that you received from us" (2 Thess. 3:6). "What you have heard from me before many witnesses entrust to faithful men who will be able to teach others also" (2 Tim. 2:2). In this passage he refers to the first four generations of apostolic succession—his own generation, Timothy’s generation, the generation Timothy will teach, and the generation they in turn will teach. The Scriptures are inspired, because they say so, but they are not complete, because, they say so! We need both Sacred Scripture, and the Sacred Traditions whichwere taught by Christ to the Apostles, and handed down to us. "All scripture is inspired by God and is useful for teaching, for refutation, for correction, and for training in righteousness, so that one who belongs to God may be competent, equipped for every good work" (2 Tm 3:16). But not even the Bible claims that it alone is sufficient to provide all the guidance we need. For that we need the Church. And look at the verse just above it: "But you, remain faithful to what you have learned and believed, because you know from whom you learned it, and that from infancy you have known (the) sacred scriptures, which are capable of giving you wisdom for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus." (Timothy 3:14-15) Jesus founded a Church, on Peter: "You are Peter (rock) and upon this rock, I will build My Church. Was your church founded by Christ, upon Peter? He told his apostles, "Whoever hears you, hears Me. Whoever rejects you, rejects Me." (Luke 10:16) He gave His Church the authority to teach and preach in His name. His words are found in the Bible, and His traditions, teachings, and authority are found in the Church He founded. Christ prayed that we all would remain one. Paul teaches us that there is but one baptism, one faith, one Lord. Therefore, there is only One True Church, which Christ founded and to which He wishes all would belong. Christ's Church lasted over a thousand years as One, using both writings and traditions, both being taught by the Church's authority, which had been established by Christ. But then in the 1500's, Martin Luther developed the doctrine of Sola Scriptura, the Bible Alone. He broke away and formed a church in his own name. And that church splintered into other denominations as other men invented other doctrines, each relying on the Bible alone, and each interpretting the Bible for himself, rather than listening to the teaching authority that Christ had established--the Catholic Church. And incidentally, Luther removed seven books from the Bible and called them "apocrypha," or uninspired writings. So, he also asks you to believe in his Bible alone, not even the complete Bible which Christ and the Apostles read and followed and taught from. I believe Jesus died on the cross for my sins, and He is the Lord of my life. me too. I'll see you in heaven My eternal fate is in the hands of the All-knowing, All-Good, All-Just, and All-Merciful God Almighty. Christ will come to judge the saved and the damned. While I live hopeful of his judgement, I do not presume to fill his sandals and pronounce my own judgement. I hope you understand. But, yeah, I sure do hope to see you in heaven! :D Pax Christi. <>< Edited December 11, 2003 by Anna Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vianney Posted December 11, 2003 Share Posted December 11, 2003 good post anna Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Posted December 11, 2003 Share Posted December 11, 2003 I understand that I am part of the HOLY Catholic church... I agree with the Apostles' Creed but I refuse to be ROMAN Catholic. Holy Catholic Church = Roman Catholic Church Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anna Posted December 11, 2003 Share Posted December 11, 2003 (edited) Robyn, I sure hope you're on your way to the Holy Catholic Church, but you reject too many of Christ's teachings to be able to honestly make that claim at the moment. Authority: you only acknowledge the Bible as the sole authority. Tradition: your church is only 100 years old, and therefore, it's traditons do not go back to the time of Christ and the teachings he personally handed down. Not saying here that you don't have a love in your heart for the Lord, but I'm just sayin' keep seeking the Truth. You've only scratched the surface, and there's depth to Christ's Love that you haven't yet experienced, nor can you even imagine! In short, I'm sure that you love the Lord dearly, but you do not belong to the One holy catholic apostolic Church founded by the Lord himself. You belong to a splinter group which has thrown out most of the teachings Christ gave us, and only retained a part of the Sacred Scriptures from which He taught. Though, I don't doubt your sincerity in emotionally loving Him, actions speak louder than words. Jesus said Himself that many will say to Him on judgement day, "Lord, Lord! We worked wonders in your name," And yet, He says that He will say, "Out of My sight! I don't know you." As Catholics, we live in Christ, and He lives in us. ("Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me and I in him. John 6) Our relationship with Him is deeply intimate. You reject His Church, the Catholic Church, and its teachings. You reject His very True Presence in the Eucharist, which He left to us. We have come to know Him in the Breaking of the Bread. For He is the Bread that Came Down from Heaven. You say you love Him, but you do not know Him. The rich man walked away sad, cuz he couldn't bring himself to follow Jesus into poverty. You will not follow Him into His Church to receive His Sacraments. Pax Christi. <>< Edited December 11, 2003 by Anna Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mulls Posted December 11, 2003 Share Posted December 11, 2003 Anna, so is it fair to say that you trust that these unwritten traditions have been perfectly maintained over the past 2000 years, without even the slightest humanly discretion from what Jesus and the Apostles taught? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anna Posted December 11, 2003 Share Posted December 11, 2003 Yes, mulls, not by the integrity of man, but by Christ's promise of the guidance and protection of the Holy Spirit, I believe that His Church has preserved His teachings free from error. Pax Christi. <>< Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paladin D Posted December 11, 2003 Share Posted December 11, 2003 Holy Catholic Church = Roman Catholic Church WORD. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paladin D Posted December 11, 2003 Share Posted December 11, 2003 Anna, so is it fair to say that you trust that these unwritten traditions have been perfectly maintained over the past 2000 years, without even the slightest humanly discretion from what Jesus and the Apostles taught? Do you trust the many different interpretations of the Bible, which all claim to be of the Holy Spirit? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mulls Posted December 11, 2003 Share Posted December 11, 2003 Yes, mulls, not by the integrity of man, but by Christ's promise of the guidance and protection of the Holy Spirit, I believe that His Church has preserved His teachings free from error. Pax Christi. <>< ok i knew that, just being clear for myself Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake Huether Posted December 11, 2003 Share Posted December 11, 2003 Anna, so is it fair to say that you trust that these unwritten traditions have been perfectly maintained over the past 2000 years, without even the slightest humanly discretion from what Jesus and the Apostles taught? So... is it fair to say that you trust that these WRITTEN words in the Bible have been perfectly maintained over the past 2000 (-400 years fyi) years, without even the slightest humanly discretion from what Jesus and the Apostles taught? Actually, Mulls, in fact, certain Bibles have acquired human "discretions". Starting at the time of the ref... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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