My Engagement

[franciscanheart]

[quote name='Aloysius' date='Dec 6 2005, 09:24 AM'][b]no one said they didn't have enough love or faith in Christ, that was your own straw man you built.  good job knocking it down though : I completely agree not to judge others that way[/b]

anyway, I was just talking trendilogically (lol that's prolly not a word) I didn't mean to say all 25+ marriages would fail, but I do believe the ideal for marriage is younger, just based on common sense observation of natural law.

anyway, I believe any relationship can work (unless something like physical or emotional abuse enters into the situation).  I don't accept at all the "not loving the other person anymore" argument-- I say so what you're married to them, you better learn to love them again because the two of you are one flesh and not loving them is like not loving a peice of yourself (again, exclude all cases of abuse and such). 

most modern relationships fail because people enter into them with crazy expectations that will never be met.  you don't just not love someone anymore and end your marriage.  you don't just get so angry that you end your marriage.  that's not supposed to even be an option, at all ever, and when that's not an option it's a lot different ballgame.  leaving your legitimate spouse should be, to the married person, an option akin to chopping off your own head-- it just isn't done.  even someone that got to the point of wanting to kill themselves probably wouldn't chop off their own head, it's impossible unless you have your own guillotine.  same thing, ending a marriage should be unthinkable and impossible even if you did decide to think about it.
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while i dont believe i did that in this case.... i tend to be very good at that :

[quote name='Luthien' date='Dec 6 2005, 09:31 AM']I hope you didn't interpret what I said as putting down 25+ year olds who aren't married yet. 
My point was that if Christ isn't the center thats when you have problems, not just when you get married young and poor.
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actually those were two seperate points i was making. the first was to not say that marriages 25+ would fail due to ... whatever ... and the second was to say that not all young and poor couples make it when their faith is in Christ. ive seen too many good and holy people seperate after getting married young and poor and while still putting their fate in the hands of the Lord.

but ANYway....

[Deeds]

Hmm, I think this will be my last post on this thread because I seem to have hijacked it somewhat, sorry Aloysius, didn't mean to rain on your parade. I do wish you all the best and hope your marriage is a long and happy one.

I do think though, that while it's very noble to be concerned only with noble Godly plans for marriage, no-one should neglect the practicalities either. It's a bit like the joke about the drowning preacher who refuses to be rescued by a Jeep, a boat and a helicopter because God will save him. To a certain extent, we have to take "worldy" things into consideration if we want to stay afloat.

[Ash Wednesday]

[quote name='Aloysius' date='Dec 5 2005, 05:39 PM']25+ marriages I think tend to be more likely to fail

at 25+, you're more likely to have created a spirit of individualism, and it's hard to submit that to a life-long relationship where two become one. getting married while you're still developing your self-identiy is better because then you incorporate that other person into your self-identity.

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Spirit of individualism, or lack of, has more to do with a person's personality than their age. To generalize like that is no different than those that are saying you're more likely to be immature at 18.

Do I think 18 is too young to marry? I don't know. I have friends who married young and they're doing just fine. I have other friends who would have failed miserably had they married that young.

I think it depends on the person. And I think cultural influence has a lot to do with it as well.

I don't think one can easily say that history is on your side, Al. It would be if cultural norms today were the same as they were, say, before the 1960s. People that married at 18 in decades and centuries past had a completely different approach to life, and I would argue that people at 18 were more mature back then. They dealt with things like death more commonly, and had to grow up faster, especially considering how much shorter life expectancies were. Younger minds in history were conditioned in school towards family life -- being a provider, caretaker and getting married (or becoming a religious) -- Nowdays when a person is 18, they have been conditioned to think about what career they want to follow, and "finding themselves." People in general are taking longer to "grow up." I suppose in part it's because nowdays, it takes us longer to die. But I also tend to think our culture now is very hostile towards marriage itself and the reality of it.

I suppose it's nice when our lives work out in a tidy little idealistic plan and timeline -- everything falls in order to meet our ideal litte schedules -- but in my experience God really doesn't work that way.

[Cow of Shame]

[quote name='photosynthesis' date='Dec 5 2005, 12:13 AM']Don't judge.
[/quote]

Why? Wouldn't I be horribly remiss if I felt he was taking an intentional header into a hazardous situation [i]and said nothing[/i]?

[quote name='Aloysius']it's not about testing around and finding the ""best"" match in the world[/quote]

I coulda missed it, but I haven't heard a single person telling you to date other people...just people worried about an early engagement & marriage before you're mature enough to handle it. While I can appreciate your enthusiasm for this and for your "Catholic compound", if you were a close friend of mine, you'd be giving me ulcers. While having ideals is good, being overly idealistic can set you up for some big falls.

[quote name='philothea']Married nearly 17 years now... and I met my husband when I was 16.[/quote]

No one is saying that you can't have a good marriage if you met young...just that marrying young can make it more difficult to stay together through those years of change around age 20ish.

[quote name='Aloysius']I was just feeling disdainful stares from dark corners[/quote]

No, just looks of disbelief.

[quote name='photosynthesis']It doesn't take a genius to keep a steady job and live independently.[/quote]
No, but you wouldn't believe the number of people who can't do it successfully & not go into debt....

[quote name='Aloysius']25+ marriages I think tend to be more likely to fail
[/quote]
And I think they'd be more likely to succeed. Look, no one is saying it CAN'T work.

Let me lay out my thinking for you:

1. You both will likely change a lot around 20. Why not DATE your way through it, with the option of an out in case you change a LOT, rather than struggle through it knowing that you have to make it work?

2. Those college years are some of the best for making friends & doing goofy stuff as an individual...getting a chance to get away from your parents, your old friends, all your 'baggage' and find out who you really ARE, or who you really want to BE. If you're engaged, you lose some of that freedom.

3. Most marriage problems are about money. I could barely put myself through college, even with my parents help. I can't imagine being accountable for putting a fellow student through college, with the added bonus of potentially paying for a kid. YES, people do it, but why add monetary struggles to a new marriage?

You CAN do it, but why? Because you're a couple of horny horny people, is why. And personally, I don't think sex is worth all the extra difficulties that an early marriage would bring.

[quote name='Aloysius']at 25+, you're more likely to have created a spirit of individualism, and it's hard to submit that to a life-long relationship where two become one. getting married while you're still developing your self-identiy is better because then you incorporate that other person into your self-identity.[/quote]

WHAT IS WRONG WITH INDIVIDUALISM? I think it's very very very healthy to have a good, grounded, solid idea of who you are as an individual without getting totally wrapped up in someone as as your identity. This is some very mentally unhealthy thinking, dude. And if you've been DATING the whole time, then you don't have a problem with committing & submitting to the other. Now you're really starting to scare me.

[quote name='scardella']engagement/betrothal is a commitment to marry someone. It has this force propelling you towards marriage[/quote]

Yeah, this is why I've never understood long engagements....and why they're sometimes used as an explanation/reason for getting married young. It's as if having a long engagement makes getting married young 'ok'. In my mind, it just makes it much harder to walk away from if that's what needs to be done. If you aren't ready to get married within 6 months, don't get engaged.

Edited December 6, 2005 by Cow of Shame

[Cow of Shame]

[quote name='Church Punk']There is so much growing you will do during that time. You will either grow together, or you will grow apart. If you jump into this headfirst you may find your self in shallow water.

Also I would suggest that you take several personal retreats away from her to truly contemplate this

Grow with each other, do not jump into anything, let things happen, let the Lord work his will with you two. [/quote]

Awesome advice.

[quote name='Aloysius']but that "love" that everyone talks about isn't the stuff that makes marriages-- it's WILL.[/quote]

Perhaps the will to love, but it's definitely LOVE.

[quote name='Ash Wednesday']I don't think one can easily say that history is on your side, Al. It would be if cultural norms today were the same as they were, say, before the 1960s. People that married at 18 in decades and centuries past had a completely different approach to life, and I would argue that people at 18 were more mature back then[/quote]

Exactly

Edited December 6, 2005 by Cow of Shame

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='tomasio127' date='Dec 4 2005, 11:39 AM']so the whole general idea (for the benefit of those unfamiliar, such as converts,  ) is?
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I feel I can't get into it right now because I have too much to say. Some of it is expressed in the betrothal thread from a while back..

I hope to finish a booklet someday that covers all the major stuff..

[Aloysius]

love properly defined, yes. i just find that when people talk about love making marriages, they're not properly defining love, that's why I worded it that way.

I don't know, I probably would fit in better back then-- my way of looking at things is much more like that and I don't think that just becasue we have longer average life expectencies (keep in mind this is average, people in every age have lived up to ages like 80 and 90 and even 100...) doesn't mean we have to change our outlook about marriage.

the old outlook on marriage matches much better with natural law.
while I think younger marriages should be strived for and planned for ideally, that doesn't mean a marriage at any age can't work. I was just saying that like, purposefully planning to prolong marriage till ages 25+ is a dumb idea that probably leads to less successful marriages. not that marriages that happen to happen at ages 25+ dont work.


anyway, I think you kinda missed my balanced idealism and realism philosophy in this thread here. I don't expect some perfect marriage, some perfect life where everything happens at specific planned points; but that doesn't mean I'm not going to try. Anyway, that's the point, striving to bring my ideals into reality, but being realistic about it all.

[Deeds]

[quote name='Aloysius' date='Dec 7 2005, 07:37 AM']I was just saying that like, purposefully planning to prolong marriage till ages 25+ is a dumb idea that probably leads to less successful marriages.
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The vast majority of divorce statistics contradict this. For example,

"In 2001, 30 per cent of all divorces were to couples where at least one of the partners was aged 20 or under when they married. This is a significant fall from 60 per cent in 1981, but not unexpected given that the proportion of marriages where at least one of the partners was under 20 has fallen from 36 per cent in 1981 to 4 per cent in 2001."

from [url="http://www.gro-scotland.gov.uk/statistics/library/annrep/annrep/01sect6.html"]http://www.gro-scotland.gov.uk/statistics/...ep/01sect6.html[/url]

[franciscanheart]

i would say a lot of couples that divorce after marrying young didnt give themselves time to grow up. like... i forget who... said, nowadays people take a lot longer to grow up or mature. times are very different. people want to get out and play adults but dont realize the pressures and resonsibilities until they are so far in they dont know what else to do except run.

[Laudate_Dominum]

young marriage rocks. I have so many friends who married young, and my older sister married at 17. It is such a beautiful thing.

statistics are secular. the worst thing for a marriage isn't being young, its being impure and disrespecting each other sexually and not even understanding what marriage and sexuality is all about. statistically a lot of young people are hedonistic. these are the marriages that are doomed. but if the people love God, know that marriage and sex are holy, and they want to have babies, its all good.

if you think I'm naive so be it. I'm being just as general and broad as the people espousing a negative perspective. :

[Ash Wednesday]

"Statistics are secular" ??? So? Even Catholic apologists and pro-life activists use statistics. Statistics can be distorted and suspect to scrutiny, yes, but so can a lot of things, including the way people use scripture.

I'm not gonna bash young marriage -- and I don't know Al well enough to make a call as to whether or not they are ready to marry. Heck, as I said before I have friends that married young successfully, so I'm staying out of that debate.

Maybe from the perspective of all of us who share the same FAITH, we should stop flooberty-gibbitting about age, when the primary issues at hand that mean building a good marriage don't necessarily involve a specific age (of course we mean two people past, say 18 of course...)

This is why I strongly disagree with the notion that putting off marriage until 25+ is "stupid" -- I suppose it's stupid to someone who is ready and willing to marry at 18. But it would be even more stupid for someone to be dishonest with their fiance, and themselves, and in the process cause a lot of grief by marrying too early when they weren't ready. Yes, I had friends in college that did this -- and they aren't married anymore.

[franciscanheart]

i have to admit that my last comment was with a specific couple in mind. i do not wish for their relationship to be doomed but i can see things turning sour very quickly... so... yeah.

[benedictaj]

If someone is too young to get engaged/betrothed and marry at 18, wouldn't they then also be too young to enter a convent or seminary???

Lauren (Totus Tuus here) is 18....and she has just entered the Poor Clares of Perpertual Adoration, a cloistered monastery. Do you think that at our age (I'm 18 tomorrow) we can't make that decision either?

I'm just curious, as I haven't talked to my parents about my vocation yet, and I'm hoping to preempt their arguments, lol.

[Cow of Shame]

[quote name='memtherose' date='Dec 7 2005, 02:20 PM']If someone is too young to get engaged/betrothed and marry at 18, wouldn't they then also be too young to enter a convent or seminary???

Lauren (Totus Tuus here) is 18....and she has just entered the Poor Clares of Perpertual Adoration, a cloistered monastery. Do you think that at our age (I'm 18 tomorrow) we can't make that decision either?

[/quote]

I'm pretty sure she wasn't instantly made into a nun. They have several years to committ...it's kind of like the dating stage. She's dating Jesus.

haha

[benedictaj]

Yeah, but the postulancy and novitiate are like being engaged, then after about 3 years you make Temporary Profession....

[Cow of Shame]

[quote name='memtherose' date='Dec 7 2005, 02:35 PM']Yeah, but the postulancy and novitiate are like being engaged, then after about 3 years you make Temporary Profession....
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How long to reach postulancy & novitiate stages? Even then, you've got another [b]three years[/b] ahead of you to change your mind.

[Aloysius]

perhaps then, you should check my first post and the timelines that involved quite a few years....

anyway, as a society it is stupid to raise our kids not to be ready. I guess it's wrong to say individuals are stupid to do it, but I do think it is a dumb thing for society to do.

perhaps the young people are "playing adult" because they recognize something in the natural law that says they should be adults by now, that their bodies are ready for sex and there's only one moral way to have sex... but since society raised them not to be ready at this point they end up screwing it up.

L_D's statement that statistics are secular is important because that means it doesn't take into account the factor of the FAITH and the concept that ending a marriage isn't even an option because the two people understand so well the permanence of it.

I really think our society raising children not to be ready for marriage until their 30's is completely contradictory to the natural law that prepares their bodies for sex a lot sooner.

[franciscanheart]

i dont think theyre necessarily getting married just to have sex. i know that sex is a vital part of marriage but its not everything

[Aloysius]

I didn't say that was the only thing-- it's just that it makes the most sense to prepare everything else (mentally, emotionally, spiritually, et cetera) for the time when our bodies are most prepared for sex.

to have sex necessitates marriage. our bodies tell us to have sex at a certain age, the closest to that age we can reasonably be ready for marriage the better.

sex is good and beautiful, in the proper context.

[DancesforLove]

Awww thats so sweet!!! Congratulations!