Laudate_Dominum Posted December 31, 2005 Author Share Posted December 31, 2005 [quote name='Deeds' date='Dec 30 2005, 05:46 PM']Those pics of Keira Knightley and others... the necklines are quite low, aren't they? I'm not saying they're wrong or anything, but I wouldn't especially hold that up as a standard of the most modest way of dressing... [right][snapback]840410[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Yeah, it's a bit much sometimes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
franciscanheart Posted December 31, 2005 Share Posted December 31, 2005 im not a fan of the belly showing... maybe because i have more belly TO show haha but still.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laudate_Dominum Posted December 31, 2005 Author Share Posted December 31, 2005 [quote name='hugheyforlife' date='Dec 30 2005, 06:04 PM']im not a fan of the belly showing... maybe because i have more belly TO show haha but still.... [right][snapback]840444[/snapback][/right] [/quote] yeah, its just hard to find pics these days that aren't at least somewhat revealing.. I think the less revealing look is more dignified and mysterious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Extra ecclesiam nulla salus Posted December 31, 2005 Share Posted December 31, 2005 yeah. i think belly photos are wrong Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laudate_Dominum Posted December 31, 2005 Author Share Posted December 31, 2005 [quote name='Extra ecclesiam nulla salus' date='Dec 30 2005, 06:07 PM']yeah. i think belly photos are wrong [right][snapback]840455[/snapback][/right] [/quote] sadly, even the belly photo is 10 times better then what you'll see going to the mall, or even the grocery store. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Extra ecclesiam nulla salus Posted December 31, 2005 Share Posted December 31, 2005 (edited) very true. Edited December 31, 2005 by Extra ecclesiam nulla salus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laudate_Dominum Posted December 31, 2005 Author Share Posted December 31, 2005 [quote name='Deeds' date='Dec 30 2005, 05:46 PM']Those pics of Keira Knightley and others... the necklines are quite low, aren't they? I'm not saying they're wrong or anything, but I wouldn't especially hold that up as a standard of the most modest way of dressing... [right][snapback]840410[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Oh, while I agree, and I blame it on just having a hard time finding pictures that are just right, I must say that I don't define modesty based on how much or how little skin is being shown. I think a dress with a low neckline can still be modest. Similarly I think some of the belly revealing saris can be modest. A lot of it depends on the context. For example when a certain friend of mine exposes one of her breasts in the middle of our conversation and breast feeds I don't feel at all offended or that she's being immodest. We're close like family and there is nothing sexual or scandalous about it. Or the women in Italy who breast feed in public, or the paintings in Italy of Our Lady with a breast exposed. Our culture tends to perceive breasts in an exclusively erotic sense so such things are "immodest", I consider this to be a kind of cultural neurosis. Another example might be the Sistine Chapel, which I hardly consider to be immodest, whereas Playboy magazine is beyond immodest. I can imagine two outfits that reveal the exact same amount of skin in the same regions, but one could be immodest while the other one would not be. Let the controversy begin! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
franciscanheart Posted December 31, 2005 Share Posted December 31, 2005 while i whole-heartedly agree with you sean you have to admit that even with a modest mindset, some clothing in this culture would be inappropriate not because of the wearer's intentions but of the thoughts of those seeing her. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laudate_Dominum Posted December 31, 2005 Author Share Posted December 31, 2005 [quote name='hugheyforlife' date='Dec 30 2005, 06:39 PM']while i whole-heartedly agree with you sean you have to admit that even with a modest mindset, some clothing in this culture would be inappropriate not because of the wearer's intentions but of the thoughts of those seeing her. [right][snapback]840535[/snapback][/right] [/quote] oh for sure.. While the mostly naked woman in the amazon tribe would not be sinning against chastity by walking around her village topless, this would be a grave scandal and major immodesty in the context of this country. But I'm not saying its just culturally relative. But the body itself is not scandalous or sinful, it is the intentions of the person, the conditioning of the "audience" and the cultural mentality that all factor in. And I don't believe in the nudist colony mentality that we should strive for a culture that can handle nudity without sinning. I think we should strive for a culture that values mystery and human dignity. I much prefer the Pride and Prejudice setting to that of the Amazon tribe or nudist colony. There is a value and meaning to covering oneself, and it can be a very beautiful thing. We won't be free of the fall this side of the eschaton. I just don't think attaining a culture of beautiful mystique and transcendent human dignity requires Afghanistan type fashion sense. The pictures of Our Lady that I recall from Italy, in which she was exposing a breast, in fact evoked tremendous sentiments of reverence and mystery. The body reveals the mystery of God, and nudity in the proper context is an icon of God's love and mystery. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deeds Posted December 31, 2005 Share Posted December 31, 2005 [quote name='Laudate_Dominum' date='Dec 31 2005, 12:37 AM']Oh, while I agree, and I blame it on just having a hard time finding pictures that are just right, I must say that I don't define modesty based on how much or how little skin is being shown. I think a dress with a low neckline can still be modest. [right][snapback]840527[/snapback][/right] [/quote] That's interesting. I think I agree with you. A lot of our perception of modesty is culturally determined - for example, showing your belly in India is considered perfectly acceptable and not immodest at all, but wearing shorts would be seen as vulgar. Although, Pius XI had very particular standards about the level of skin which was acceptable to show: [quote]We recall that a dress cannot be called decent which is cut deeper than two fingers breadth under the pit of the throat, which does not cover the arms at least to the elbows, and scarcely reaches a bit beyond the knee. Furthermore, dresses of transparent material are improper.[/quote] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laudate_Dominum Posted December 31, 2005 Author Share Posted December 31, 2005 [quote name='Deeds' date='Dec 30 2005, 06:47 PM']That's interesting. I think I agree with you. A lot of our perception of modesty is culturally determined - for example, showing your belly in India is considered perfectly acceptable and not immodest at all, but wearing shorts would be seen as vulgar. Although, Pius XI had very particular standards about the level of skin which was acceptable to show: [right][snapback]840555[/snapback][/right] [/quote] true, but some teachings of that sort are "pastoral" and pertain to the current historical and cultural context. I'm not saying that these guidelines are not valid or that they're irrelevant, just that they aren't doctrinal or dogmatic, they are disciplinary at best. At worst they are simply the private opinion of the Pope. Since I'm not sure about the exact source I can't say. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
franciscanheart Posted December 31, 2005 Share Posted December 31, 2005 [quote name='Laudate_Dominum' date='Dec 30 2005, 07:46 PM']oh for sure.. While the mostly naked woman in the amazon tribe would not be sinning against chastity by walking around her village topless, this would be a grave scandal and major immodesty in the context of this country. But I'm not saying its just culturally relative. But the body itself is not scandalous or sinful, it is the intentions of the person, the conditioning of the "audience" and the cultural mentality that all factor in. And I don't believe in the nudist colony mentality that we should strive for a culture that can handle nudity without sinning. I think we should strive for a culture that values mystery and human dignity. I much prefer the Pride and Prejudice setting to that of the Amazon tribe or nudist colony. I just don't think attaining a culture of beautiful mystique and transcendent human dignity requires Afghanistan type fashion sense. The pictures of Our Lady that I recall from Italy, in which she was exposing a breast, in fact evoked tremendous sentiments of reverence and mystery. The body reveals the mystery of God, and nudity in the proper context is an icon of God's love and mystery. [right][snapback]840554[/snapback][/right] [/quote] i think we dream of the same utopias. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
franciscanheart Posted December 31, 2005 Share Posted December 31, 2005 here is one of my little girls... for real. [img]http://www.themedievalmarket.com/littlepeasant2.jpg[/img] and i will be a larger, more mature version of that. man i cant wait for those times in my life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laudate_Dominum Posted December 31, 2005 Author Share Posted December 31, 2005 [quote name='hugheyforlife' date='Dec 30 2005, 06:52 PM']here is one of my little girls... for real. [img]http://www.themedievalmarket.com/littlepeasant2.jpg[/img] and i will be a larger, more mature version of that. man i cant wait for those times in my life. [right][snapback]840572[/snapback][/right] [/quote] omgosh! adorable! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
franciscanheart Posted December 31, 2005 Share Posted December 31, 2005 isnt she though?!!? man i cant wait to have kids! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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