Danish Cartoons

[peacenluvbaby]

I'm sure anyone who reads or watches the news has heard of the incredible outrage among Muslims in the Middle East over a series of cartoons published in a Danish newspaper depicting Muhammed.

First, I'd like to point out that it was an exercise in freedom of expression - a danish writer had said that no one would be willing to illustrate his controversial book on Muhammed, so the newspaper asked for submissions to see how many people would actually submit drawings on such a sensitive issue.

Secondly, millions of cartoons exist of Jesus and Christian religion, as well as other religions, many of which are hilarious.... So, the "tolerance" and "respect" aspect is somewhat mute in my opinion.

Here are two links - one to Christian cartoons, one to the Muslim-Danish ones.

[url="http://www.cartoonstock.com/search.asp?x=a&keyword=jesus&Category=Not+Selected&Boolean=Phrase&Artist=Not+Selected&submit=Search"]http://www.cartoonstock.com/search.asp?x=a...d&submit=Search[/url]

[url="http://www.newspaperindex.com/blog/2005/12/10/un-to-investigate-jyllands-posten-racism/"]http://www.newspaperindex.com/blog/2005/12...-posten-racism/[/url]

What do you think?

PEACE!
Free Speech for all!

[1337 k4th0l1x0r]

I think it shows a fundamental difference between Islam and Christianity. Islam teaches what amounts to "kill your opressor" whereas Christianity teaches "love your opressor." I've heard of far more blasphemous displays of Christ and Christians do not give death threats. We tend to pray for them.

[Ash Wednesday]

If Jyllands-Posten is going to be investigated by the U.N. for racism, then where is the outcry for all the garbage that makes fun of Christianity and Jesus?

I get uneasy at times about religious jokes, myself, and I would never deliberately do something to cheapen or lampoon another religion, because I don't like it when that is done to Catholicism. How people approach humor and religion is a grey area at times --

But what I can definitely say, is that it angers me that there is no equality as far as response towards how a religion is treated in the public arena. The U.N. has never done a beaver dam thing about publications or artworks that mock or blaspheme Christianity, and yet a charicature of Mohammed becomes a hot button issue?

Whatever is decided, whether it's to allow freedom of expression or to enforce censorship, it should be equal across the boards. If they're going to ban any mockery of Islam, then they should ban mockery of Christianity while they are at it -- and if they continue to allow people to publicly do the same thing to Christianity, then Jyllands-Posten's comic is fair game.

[Aloysius]

"It is the test of a good religion whether you can joke about it." - GK Chesterton

[musturde]

I don't get why they're going crazy over boycotting Danish goods if it's only in a newspaper. I'd understand if an official said it but its just a newspaper.

[Socrates]

It should also be remembered that, unlike Christianity, Islam strictly forbids any artistic portrayal of God or religious figures (or any representations of living things, for that matter).

[Ash Wednesday]

Will the Danes have a serious economic crisis because Saudi Arabia no longer wants to buy their coagulated milk?

[peacenluvbaby]

Just an update - a French and a German paper have also reprinted the cartoons. And the whole economic problem - one Danish dairy company is losing like 2 million dollars a day because of the boycotts

[1337 k4th0l1x0r]

There's already a growing counter-boycott in support of Denmark standing up for free speech. Get your kids legos for their birthday and buy Danish coagulated milk.

[Sojourner]

[quote name='Socrates' date='Jan 31 2006, 07:05 PM']It should also be remembered that, unlike Christianity, Islam strictly forbids any artistic portrayal of God or religious figures (or any representations of living things, for that matter).
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Yes, this is true.

[peacenluvbaby]

So what if Islam forbids such portraits? It is not the place of one religion or group to impose it's rules on "non-members." If we accept that rule, why not start wearing head scarves if a woman goes into a Muslim neighborhood. Or ban pork because Jewish people can't eat it...or ban all sale of meat on Friday (I know that's no longer strictly enforced).....

Seriously, people of other religions do not freak out and boycott when their symbols are poked fun at. Imagine if all Christians boycotted the US because Hollywood movies violate our religion. Some might protest, but not demand government sanctions...that's ridiculous!

I think this is why separation of church/religion and state was invented . vs.

Peace!

[Sojourner]

[quote name='peacenluvbaby' date='Feb 2 2006, 08:11 AM']So what if Islam forbids such portraits?  It is not the place of one religion or group to impose it's rules on "non-members."  If we accept that rule, why not start wearing head scarves if a woman goes into a Muslim neighborhood.  Or ban pork because Jewish people can't eat it...or ban all sale of meat on Friday (I know that's no longer strictly enforced).....

Seriously, people of other religions do not freak out and boycott when their symbols are poked fun at.  Imagine if all Christians boycotted the US because Hollywood movies violate our religion.  Some might protest, but not demand government sanctions...that's ridiculous!

I think this is why separation of church/religion and state was invented .   vs.

Peace!   
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It's not a matter of imposing one religion's rules on another. It's a matter of [i]respecting one another's belief systems[/i].

And yes, people of other religions DO freak out and boycott when their symbols are disrespected. Mapplethorpe, anyone?

[homeschoolmom]

[quote name='Socrates' date='Jan 31 2006, 06:05 PM']It should also be remembered that, unlike Christianity, Islam strictly forbids any artistic portrayal of God or religious figures (or any representations of living things, for that matter).
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Yeah, I was going to point that out... Have you ever seen any kind of portrait of Mohammad that Mustlms endorse?

[Sojourner]

[quote name='homeschoolmom' date='Feb 2 2006, 08:22 AM']Yeah, I was going to point that out... Have you ever seen any kind of portrait of Mohammad that Mustlms endorse?
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That's why they have all the beautiful non-pictoral designs on mosques.

[peacenluvbaby]

So which rules do we need to follow? Where does free speech end and respect begin?

Should Galileo have been silenced (like he was kind of) because it was "blasphemy" and disrespectful to Christians that the earth revolved around the sun?

I remember the protests over the Last Temptation of Christ and Priest, but it did not involve governments and "diplomatic crises". It was individual groups, themselves, who wouldn't go to Disney movies or whatever, or would hold up signs at theaters...that's protected free speech and free assembly too. :lolroll:

I don't remember Clinton or Bush 1 sanctioning Hollywood moviemakers or even the Pope calling for a ban....

Peace!

[Sojourner]

[quote name='peacenluvbaby' date='Feb 2 2006, 08:44 AM']So which rules do we need to follow?  Where does free speech end and respect begin?

Should Galileo have been silenced (like he was kind of) because it was "blasphemy" and disrespectful to Christians that the earth revolved around the sun? 

I remember the protests over the Last Temptation of Christ and Priest, but it did not involve governments and "diplomatic crises".  It was individual groups, themselves, who wouldn't go to Disney movies or whatever, or would hold up signs at theaters...that's protected free speech and free assembly too. :lolroll: 

I don't remember Clinton or Bush 1 sanctioning Hollywood moviemakers or even the Pope calling for a ban....

Peace!
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I find it ironic that you sign your posts "peace" ...

Ever heard this? "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you."

That's a pretty good rule to live by.

[homeschoolmom]

I heard that somewhere... some really wise dude taught that...

[Sojourner]

[quote name='homeschoolmom' date='Feb 2 2006, 08:52 AM']I heard that somewhere... some really wise dude taught that...
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Yeah, that one dude said it.

I have a feeling he wouldn't see a distinction between respect and the exercise of free speech.

[peacenluvbaby]

Yeah, and I don't mind the occasional cartoon of Jesus. They're part of dialogue and I respect people's rights to express themselves, even if that expression offends me, then I choose to engage in civil discourse with them, and come to appreciate what motivated that person to express something that offends me. It should also be noted that satire is an inherent part of most western European culture and as such deserves respect. If a person published such cartoons in a country that had a taboo against such things, then perhaps an outcry would be in order, but in this case, I think this is a total over reaction.

Lastly, consider the fact that in many predominantly Muslim states, government TV broadcasts anti-Christian messages of various mullahs saying that a good Muslim must "hate Christians". If US government owned TV started broadcasting one of these televangelists who says everybody who's not Christian is going to hell, and that we should hate them, that would be a problem. But it's not a problem to the middle-Eastern countries's gov'ts (by and large), so it strikes me as a bit hypocritical to be able to criticize or preach hatred of Christians, and then to get diplomatically offended about some cartoons.

Peace is for all! So is freedom of speech!

[Sojourner]

[quote name='peacenluvbaby' date='Feb 2 2006, 08:57 AM']Yeah, and I don't mind the occasional cartoon of Jesus.  They're part of dialogue and I respect people's rights to express themselves, even if that expression offends me, then I choose to engage in civil discourse with them, and come to appreciate what motivated that person to express something that offends me.  It should also be noted that satire is an inherent part of most western European culture and as such deserves respect.  If a person published such cartoons in a country that had a taboo against such things, then perhaps an outcry would be in order, but in this case, I think this is a total over reaction.

Lastly, consider the fact that in many predominantly Muslim states, government TV broadcasts anti-Christian messages of various mullahs saying that a good Muslim must "hate Christians".  If US government owned TV started broadcasting one of these televangelists who says everybody who's not Christian is going to hell, and that we should hate them, that would be a problem.  But it's not a problem to the middle-Eastern countries's gov'ts (by and large), so it strikes me as a bit hypocritical to be able to criticize or preach hatred of Christians, and then to get diplomatically offended about some cartoons.

Peace is for all!  So is freedom of speech!
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So what you're really arguing is, "I get to decide what offends you, so if I don't think you should find it offensive, then you don't get to be offended."

along with

"You are mean to me, so I get to be mean back to you."

Now if those ideas aren't peace-inducing, I don't know what is.