Questions for Trads

[Ora et Labora]

[quote name='Maria' date='Apr 13 2006, 07:03 PM']Don't you fit into the first group I mentioned -- those who think the TLM is superior and should not have been replaced?
Just as my personal opinion, from what I've seen (not very much, though), I'd say you're definitely a trad, but not in a bad sense. Like, my disagreement with you would be on the personal opinion level of saying that there can be good in Life-teen masses as Life-teen masses.
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Ahh. I see. Well, I guess your complimenting me. Ya, that would be a personal level...I argue about that issue a lot. lol

[prose]

[quote name='Extra ecclesiam nulla salus' date='Apr 13 2006, 07:08 PM']im a trad. i think that all the sacraments are valid and licit.
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[quote name='Extra ecclesiam nulla salus' date='Apr 13 2006, 07:42 PM']Because im afraid that the Form Will be done incorrectly if done in the NO.
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The NO form will be done wrong, therefore making it illicit? Or the NO is okay, but often done wrong (in your opinion)?

[Extra ecclesiam nulla salus]

[quote]This is the case if oil other than the sacred chrism is used, or an oil other than olive oil (highly doubtful, since at variance with the divine institution of using olive oil) as is now permitted in the new rites, or if the signing with the sacred chrism and the imposition of the hand were not done at the same time, or if there is a doubt about the words used. Since there is a great variety in the words used, and since the traditional words "I sign thee with the sign of the cross and I confirm thee with the chrism of salvation, in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost" are never used, there is very frequently a doubt about the validity of the administration of this sacrament. [/quote]

[Sarah_JC]

That's what was said at my confirmation (well, Holy Spirit.... but Spirit sounds closer to Spiritus to me anyhow). And my parish at the time was kinda sketch... but this is the Bishop coming in to confirm you, right?
The Bishop isn't going to mess around with form.

[Extra ecclesiam nulla salus]

[quote name='Sarah_JC' date='Apr 15 2006, 08:11 AM']That's what was said at my confirmation (well, Holy Spirit.... but Spirit sounds closer to Spiritus to me anyhow). And my parish at the time was kinda sketch... but this is the Bishop coming in to confirm you, right?
The Bishop isn't going to mess around with form.
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one would think that, wouldn't one?

except my bishop is a liberal. in fact i went to Mass on Thursday celebrated by him. it was illict becuase of liturgical abuses, inculding washing the feet of women, and the fact that some parishoners were holding hands during the Lord's Prayer.

[amandaplus5]

[quote]in fact i went to Mass on Thursday celebrated by him. it was illict becuase of liturgical abuses, inculding washing the feet of women, and the fact that some parishoners were holding hands during the Lord's Prayer.[/quote]

So you're saying that an entire mass can be illicit if some parishoners hold hands during the the Lord's prayer? That doesn't make much sense to me. Yes, technically speaking, people are not supposed to do that. However, you seem to be missing the entire point of the mass. The mass is about the Eucharist. If there was major liturgical abuse dealing with that, then yes, you might have a point. But by focusing on the little technicalities, you're missing out on the mass' beauty.

We should do everything in our power to correct liturgical abuse. That does not mean that we need to over-analyze every single little hand movement. That's not being liturgically correct - that's called being prideful.

[Extra ecclesiam nulla salus]

[quote name='amandaplus5' date='Apr 15 2006, 09:01 AM']So you're saying that an entire mass can be illicit if some parishoners hold hands during the the Lord's prayer?  That doesn't make much sense to me.  Yes, technically speaking, people are not supposed to do that.  However, you seem to be missing the entire point of the mass.  The mass is about the Eucharist.  If there was major liturgical abuse dealing with that, then yes, you might have a point.  But by focusing on the little technicalities, you're missing out on the mass' beauty.

We should do everything in our power to correct liturgical abuse.  That does not mean that we need to over-analyze every single little hand movement.  That's not being liturgically correct - that's called being prideful.
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no its not. That is not allowed. i am just saying what is not allowed by the church. the pride is that this prince of the church disobeys the rubrics, and washes the feet of women, and allows for "hand holding". frankly i am used to the many liturgical abuses in the novus ordo. It is one of the reasons i do not like to attend. How is following the rubrics "bieng Prideful"?

[Noel's angel]

No, no Sam, you have it wrong. I hate liturgical abuse as much as the next person, but I sure as heck am not going to turn my back on Jesus in the Eucharist because a few people were holding hands with eachother. Don't walk away because of things a few people do to annoy you, rather, stay and focus on Christ because that is what you are there for. Walking away from things and ignoring them isn't doing anyone anny good. If you feel that there are issues that need to be addressed then ask your priest or bishop. With regards to the washing of womn's feet, there could be some reason why this was done-something that could make the practices legitimate in that situation. Why don't you ask the Bishop about these things instead of running off and shouting about it behind his back?

[Extra ecclesiam nulla salus]

[quote name='Noel's angel' date='Apr 15 2006, 09:31 AM']No, no Sam, you have it wrong.  I hate liturgical abuse as much as the next person, but I sure as heck am not going to turn my back on Jesus in the Eucharist because a few people were holding hands with eachother.  Don't walk away because of things a few people do to annoy you, rather, stay and focus on Christ because that is what you are there for.  Walking away from things and ignoring them isn't doing anyone anny good.  If you feel that there are issues that need to be addressed then ask your priest or bishop.  With regards to the washing of womn's feet, there could be some reason why this was done-something that could make the practices legitimate in that situation.  Why don't you ask the Bishop about these things instead of running off and shouting about it behind his back?
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running away?

i recieved at the mass.

btw its a little hard to speak to your bishop about liturgical abuses when he is the one perpreating these crimes.

[Noel's angel]

I'm not talking about this Mass specifically, but the whole Confirmation thing.

That's all the more reason for talking to him. Go humbly, remember he is your senior and ask him why he does these things etc. It's amazing what a humble heart can do to changes things.

[Extra ecclesiam nulla salus]

thats also not an option. the man will not answer my letters and emails. they were very respectfull.

[Noel's angel]

Well, I can't judge that. Did he specifically preapre the Liturgy?? Could you talk to your priest about it??

And pray!!!

[Extra ecclesiam nulla salus]

[quote name='Noel's angel' date='Apr 15 2006, 09:40 AM']Well, I can't judge that.  Did he specifically preapre the Liturgy??  Could you talk to your priest about it??

And pray!!!
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i don't know, but its still his fault. he is the cardinal.

no i could not. it would be ineffective.

its worthless, becuase they view me as a regresseive schismatic. they want nothing to do with me.

[Noel's angel]

That's not a good attitude to have. Don't grumble about things and then refuse to actually do anything to change them. Think of all the things that wouldn't have been acheived if someone hadn't stood up for what is right.

He couldn't really have stopped the Mass and said 'right everyone stop holding hands'. It's not an appropriate time.

[Extra ecclesiam nulla salus]

[quote name='Noel's angel' date='Apr 15 2006, 09:48 AM']That's not a good attitude to have.  Don't grumble about things and then refuse to actually do anything to change them.  Think of all the things that wouldn't have been acheived if someone hadn't stood up for what is right.

He couldn't really have stopped the Mass and said 'right everyone stop holding hands'.  It's not an appropriate time.
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no but. he did not have to wash the feet of women, and he could have announced that it is inipropriate to hold hands durind mass.



but he didn't. becuase he is very liberal, and he may not see anything wrong with that.



the only change i want is the eradication of the Novus Ordo Mass.

[Noel's angel]

I was only trying to help.

There are some bad people in the Church, does that mean we should eradicate the Church?? No. Just because you have had a bad experience with a few memebers of the clergy doesn't mean the Novus Ordo is at fault.

Swords are beautiful things and a lot of care and attention goes in to making them. They can make beautiful decorations and can be used in good ways. But, when a sword is given to a person who doesn't respect what it can do, people can get hurt. And people continue to get hurt until the person learns how to respect the sword. Then we see the true beauty of the sword. It was not the sword that was at fault for hurting others, but the man who used it disrespectfully.

[Extra ecclesiam nulla salus]

[quote name='Noel's angel' date='Apr 15 2006, 09:56 AM']I was only trying to help.

There are some bad people in the Church, does that mean we should eradicate the Church??  No.  Just because you have had a bad experience with a few memebers of the clergy doesn't mean the Novus Ordo is at fault.

Swords are beautiful things and a lot of care and attention goes in to making them.  They can make beautiful decorations and can be used in good ways.  But, when a sword is given to a person who doesn't respect what it can do, people can get hurt.  And people continue to get hurt until the person learns how to respect the sword.  Then we see the true beauty of the sword.  It was not the sword that was at fault for hurting others, but the man who used it disrespectfully.
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im sorry. i did not mean to say Eradicate the church. i meant only the Novus Ordo mass.

[amandaplus5]

I think Noel's Angel (and correct me if I'm wrong, because I don't want to put words into your mouth) was using eradicating the church as an example. Just because people screw things up isn't a good reason to toss something. Look at Church history. Chunks of it are not pretty. However, that's because of the human tendency to screw perfectly good things up. church doctrine was not a t fault.

In the same way, it's not the Novus Ordo mass that is at fault. It's the people who are. And don't even try to say that liturgical abuse only occurs in the Novus Ordo mass.

[Extra ecclesiam nulla salus]

[quote name='amandaplus5' date='Apr 15 2006, 11:58 AM']I think Noel's Angel (and correct me if I'm wrong, because I don't want to put words into your mouth) was using eradicating the church as an example.  Just because people screw things up isn't a good reason to toss something.  Look at Church history.  Chunks of it are not pretty.  However, that's because of the human tendency to screw perfectly good things up.  church doctrine was not a t fault. 

In the same way, it's not the Novus Ordo mass that is at fault.  It's the people who are.  And don't even try to say that liturgical abuse only occurs in the Novus Ordo mass.
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im not. ive seen liturgical abuses at the TLM. but they are far less common. thats not really the point though. the NO mass departs from tradition, and is stripped of its catholic Prayers. it IS the abuse.

[Fidei Defensor]

[quote name='Extra ecclesiam nulla salus' date='Apr 15 2006, 01:03 PM']im not. ive seen liturgical abuses at the TLM. but they are far less common. thats not really the point though. the NO mass departs from tradition, and is stripped of its catholic Prayers. it IS the abuse.
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Sam, you do realize that if the Church was to "abandon" the NO that those priests who already abuse that Mass would abuse the TLM even worse?

Please, I understand you dont like the NO Mass, and I am sure anything we say will not change that. However, please, let the Holy Father take care of this. He will do things in his own time and own way, but he will fix the problems.

Just hold on to this thought: all of the liberal priests, are getting really old now, and are dying off. As bad as it sounds to say that, it's true. And replacing them are the orthodox youth who are on fire for Christ and His Church. And the sooner these young men are ordained Priests, the sooner the orthodoxy revolution can be fully underway.

Do not lose hope. Jesus has not abandoned his Church. It is going through trials, but it will come through strong.