Resurrexi Posted July 6, 2006 Share Posted July 6, 2006 I support the Crusades big time! Do you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaime Posted July 6, 2006 Share Posted July 6, 2006 I remember this poll back in 1291 when it was relevant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sojourner Posted July 6, 2006 Share Posted July 6, 2006 [quote name='hot stuff' post='1018430' date='Jul 6 2006, 04:36 PM'] I remember this poll back in 1291 when it was relevant. [/quote] Wow, I knew you were old, but I had no idea! You carry your age well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DAF Posted July 6, 2006 Share Posted July 6, 2006 If you mean am I ashamed of them, absolutely not. Of course there were things that happened that we would all prefer if they hadn't, but I'm a Catholic, and I'm proud of my heritage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crusader_4 Posted July 6, 2006 Share Posted July 6, 2006 Am I ashamed of the firebombings of dresden, am I ashamed of the Bombings of Nagasaki and Hiroshima of course I am. Am I ashamed of WWII of course not. Am I ashamed of the sack of constantinople of course am I ashamed of the Crusades of course not. We must be careful not to judge a war or a crusade by the motives of a few men or the incidents of some. I am completly pro-crusade. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EcceNovaFacioOmni Posted July 6, 2006 Share Posted July 6, 2006 Medieval Islam might be the greatest threat Christianity has ever faced (Satan excluded). If not for the Crusades, this world would be a very different place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Era Might Posted July 6, 2006 Share Posted July 6, 2006 Since the Pope's "prudential" judgements are not binding, as we were constantly reminded when America went to war with Iraq, they are not binding when it comes to the crusades. Your captions around "Catholic" in this poll are unnecessary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Resurrexi Posted July 6, 2006 Author Share Posted July 6, 2006 [quote]Since the Pope's "prudential" judgements are not binding, [/quote] yes they are. It would be disobedience not to agree with His Holieness on a matter of dicipline, even if he's not infallable in it. [quote]as we were constantly reminded when America went to war with Iraq,[/quote] I don't know what you mean by that. Do you support the Eye-rack war or something? [quote]they are not binding when it comes to the crusades. [/quote] they are just as binding as the GIRM is binding. [quote]Your captions around "Catholic" in this poll are unnecessary.[/quote] No-one who disobeys the Pope on something so important for an unjust reason should not call themselves Catholic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Era Might Posted July 6, 2006 Share Posted July 6, 2006 1) The Pope's disciplinary orders have to be accepted, they don't have to be AGREED with. 2) A Pope's opinion about a particular war is not a matter of Catholic doctrine. No Catholic is required, by the complusion of faith, to oppose the war in Iraq anymore than they are required, by the compulsion of faith, to support the historical wars known as the "Crusades". 3) Your implication that someone who judges the Crusades to be unjust historical wars is not Catholic is wrong and unacceptable. 4) A Pope calling for a Crusade acts as a temporal military leader, not as the Universal Pastor of the Church. His judgements about temporal military matters, and whether they justify the recourse to war, is entirely fallible and subject to error. No Catholic would be required to fight in a Crusade, let alone support it morally, if they believed the circumstances did not justify the recourse to violence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rkwright Posted July 6, 2006 Share Posted July 6, 2006 [quote name='Era Might' post='1018473' date='Jul 6 2006, 03:55 PM'] 1) The Pope's disciplinary orders have to be accepted, they don't have to be AGREED with. 2) A Pope's opinion about a particular war is not a matter of Catholic doctrine. No Catholic is required, by the complusion of faith, to oppose the war in Iraq anymore than they are required, by the compulsion of faith, to support the historical wars known as the "Crusades". 3) Your implication that someone who judges the Crusades to be unjust historical wars is not Catholic is wrong and unacceptable. 4) A Pope calling for a Crusade acts as a temporal military leader, not as the Universal Pastor of the Church. His judgements about temporal military matters, and whether they justify the recourse to war, is entirely fallible and subject to error. No Catholic would be required to fight in a Crusade, let alone support it morally, if they believed the circumstances did not justify the recourse to violence. [/quote] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Resurrexi Posted July 6, 2006 Author Share Posted July 6, 2006 [quote]1) The Pope's disciplinary orders have to be accepted, they don't have to be AGREED with.[/quote] then I must correct myself. All Catholics must accept that the Crusades were good and that God willed them. [quote]2) A Pope's opinion about a particular war is not a matter of Catholic doctrine. No Catholic is required, by the complusion of faith, to oppose the war in Iraq anymore than they are required, by the compulsion of faith, to support the historical wars known as the "Crusades".[/quote] You see, the Crusades were a war about Catholicism. The Pope's opinion of the Crusades, which were started by a Pope, is very important because they are about morals. And I would say they are also about dicipline. As the Pope opposes the War in Eye-rack, no Catholic, can in good concience, support it. Catholics are very much more compelled to 'accept' the crusades more than they must 'accept' that the War in Eye-rack is wrong becuase the Crusades are directly related to the Catholic Church and its Faith and Morals. [quote]3) Your implication that someone who judges the Crusades to be unjust historical wars is not Catholic is wrong and unacceptable. [/quote] No, it is wrong to believe that someone who does not accept what the Pope teaches about a war directly relating to the Church is a good Catholic, just as it is wrong for certain "Rad-trads" to not accept the Missa Normativa as valid. [quote]A Pope calling for a Crusade acts as a temporal military leader, not as the Universal Pastor of the Church.[/quote] No, he is calling them as a spiritual leader and Pastor of the Church becuase they have to do with the Faith. [quote]His judgements about temporal military matters, and whether they justify the recourse to war, is entirely fallible and subject to error.[/quote] The Pope is also entirely fallable on matters that are only dicipline such as in his encyclicals. We are obliged, never the less, to accept what he teaches in his encyclical letters. As I've said, though, the Pope was acting as the Pastor of the Universal Church when he said that God willed the Crudades. [quote]No Catholic would be required to fight in a Crusade, let alone support it morally, if they believed the circumstances did not justify the recourse to violence.[/quote] Of course no Catholic is required to fight in a Crusade but [b]THE CRUSADES COULD NOT HAVE BEEN UNJUST OR IMMORAL BECAUSE THE POPE, USING HIS AUTHOURITY GAVE A PLENARY INDULGENCE TO ANYONE WHO FOUGHT IN A CRUSADE.[/b] And becuase the Pope used his power to say that God willed them, Catholics are obliged to believe that God willed them just as they are obliged to believe that God is love, as His Holieness, using his power, stated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ReinnieR Posted July 6, 2006 Share Posted July 6, 2006 [quote name='Sojourner' post='1018433' date='Jul 6 2006, 02:44 PM'] Wow, I knew you were old, but I had no idea! You carry your age well. [/quote] haha you walked right into that one Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Era Might Posted July 6, 2006 Share Posted July 6, 2006 (edited) 1. No, Catholics do not have to believe either the Crusades were just or that God willed them. That is a question of historical military tactics, not Catholic doctrine. 2. No, Catholics are not forbidden from supporting the war in Iraq, as Pope Benedict XVI explains: [quote][The Pope] did not impose this position [against the war in Iraq] as doctrine of the Church but as the appeal of a conscience enlightened by faith. [url="http://zenit.org/english/visualizza.phtml?sid=34882"]http://zenit.org/english/visualizza.phtml?sid=34882[/url][/quote] The Pope's opinion about a particular war is a prudential judgement on certain temporal factors, and whether or not those factors justify a military response. This is as much true about the Crusades as it is about the war in Iraq. 3. A Pope's opinion about a war has nothing to do with the Liturgy of the Church. One is ecclesial legislation touching on the Church's faith and worship. The other is a prudential opinion about a temporal (not ecclesial) matter, specifically, the recourse to violence against an aggressor. 4. Of course the Pope granted indulgences to Crusaders. He thought the war was just. The Pope was entitled to his opinion, and entitled to act as he saw fit according to his position in the civil affairs of the day. The Crusades are not a matter of Catholic faith. They were not a matter of Catholic faith when they occured, and they are not a matter of Catholic faith today. They were a civil military response that happened to receive the approval of the Bishop of Rome. The Bishop of Rome was involved in the launching of the Crusades because he had responsibilities for the temporal affairs of his time. Unlike today, he was very much a civil ruler as well as a Pastor of souls. Your error here is not making the theological and historical distinctions necessary to evaluate a historical matter such as the Crusades. This will be my last response. Edited July 6, 2006 by Era Might Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Akalyte Posted July 6, 2006 Share Posted July 6, 2006 yeah I support the Crusades and personally I want to start my own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ReinnieR Posted July 6, 2006 Share Posted July 6, 2006 (edited) [quote name='Era Might' post='1018520' date='Jul 6 2006, 04:47 PM'] 2. No, Catholics are not forbidden from supporting the war in Iraq, as Pope Benedict XVI explains: [/quote] i sure hope not. i was in that war. and probobly will be in it again. Edited July 6, 2006 by ReinnieR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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