Do you support the Crusades?

[thessalonian]

I support the crusades in the Churches intent but not always in action. Atrocities were committed by some, if not many, crusaders and these are to be condemned.

Edited July 17, 2006 by thessalonian

[Called2theCross]

[quote name='Jesuspaidtheprice' post='1019097' date='Jul 7 2006, 08:30 AM']
The crusades were tragic times in human history, as is anytime when we have to turn to brutal violence to solve problems.
[/quote]

I agree--- and please enlighten me as to what the pope taught about the Crusades because STM was getting really worked up over "disobedience." We learned about the Crusades in school and they seemed pretty sad. Of the 4 battles we learned about, we only won one, which didn't really prove anything. In one instance, the Crusaders were supposed to have a big battle but on the way there, they attacked and ransacked an innocent Jewish city instead. I don't understand how God could have willed innocent people to be killed. I could be wrong since, as I pointed out earlier in this post, I am not sure of what the pope said about the Crusades. But I think I caught the jist of it from the spirited debate on this topic
Mucho Love,
Called2theCross :

[cathoholic_anonymous]

The Crusades are not a football team. You cannot 'support' them.

They were wars like any other wars - a messy cocktail of politics, personal pride, prejudice, sociology, and fear of the 'unknown'. Religion did have a part to play - it was a definite trigger - but most of the time it just served as a clumsy smokescreen for the greedy ambitions of men. If all the Christians and Muslims of those times had been truly devout (and some were - I believe that there were idealists who went to the Crusades with pure intentions) they would have known that viciously ripping apart the Holy Land is not the action of a religious person.

[thessalonian]

This "can't we all just get along" rodney king all loving God (by a poor definition of love) just doesn't match scripture. Nations have a right to punish their people and to fight just wars. Just war theology is a part of Catholic doctrine. Christians were being slaughtered by the Moslems. One group of about 12,000 was wiped out. Some of what the crusades did was neccessary and some of it was quite sinful. You can most certainly support some of them and their intent in good conscience and good standing with the Church. And I will.

[EcceNovaFacioOmni]

For hundreds of years the Europeans let Muslim armies roll across North Africa and the Middle East - losing a lot of once Christian strongholds. If not for the Crusades, Medieval Christian Europe may not have survived. Catholicism possibly would not be the 1 billion member strong, world-wide Church it is today.

[Aloysius]

Christendom should have arose in a crusade in the 7th century. Well, okay, we probably didn't have the capacity for a large scale war against Mohammad's army; but if we could have done it I would have fully supported it.

That's right, I just said I would have supported a crusade against Mohammad himself. They attacked Christendom, and for too long we let them destroy, pillage, and plunder those places we had already won for Christ. Mohammad himself attacked Christendom (and Pagandom... haha is that a word?). That we finally had enough of their attempts to conquer us in the turn of the second millenium and sent large armies to attack back and defend the lives of Christians who were being threatened I fully support. Shoulda been done a lot sooner and the world wouldn't be in so much of the mess it's in now.

A lot of the soldiers went a did a lot of sinful things while out on the crusades; but the reasons for sending those soldiers were 100% just and anyone who does not see that is blind to history and blind to Christian just war doctrine.

Christ commanded His apostles to own swords, that if they didn't have one they should sell their cloak and buy one. Clearly just in case their lives were threatened, clearly just in case the lives of those they taught about Him were threatened. It's a good thing at the turn of the second millenium Christ's Apostles, the bishops, still kept company with those who bore swords and could defend their flocks.

[Lounge Daddy]

Ya, I support them

Are we in another one today? Maybe not without the Pope's blessing...
ah well

[Akalyte]

If it werent for the Crusades, we would all be kneeling on persian rugs worshipping allah. Yes I'll reiterate it, I support all of the Crusade and I even pray for more! "I came not to bring peace, but the sword" -Christ Jesus



stop being a bunch of cindy sheehans. The Church has been through more wars than the US of A. There is a peace to be found on the other side of War.

[ruso]

[quote name='Akalyte' post='1034282' date='Jul 30 2006, 04:58 PM']
If it werent for the Crusades, we would all be kneeling on persian rugs worshipping allah. Yes I'll reiterate it, I support all of the Crusade and I even pray for more! "I came not to bring peace, but the sword" -Christ Jesus
stop being a bunch of cindy sheehans. The Church has been through more wars than the US of A. There is a peace to be found on the other side of War.
[/quote]
Ehh, a thing is to defend us, another to attack

[Era Might]

[quote]Everyone must sincerely co-operate in the effort to banish fear and the anxious expectation of war from men's minds. But this requires that the fundamental principles upon which peace is based in today's world be replaced by an altogether different one, namely, the realization that true and lasting peace among nations cannot consist in the possession of an equal supply of armaments but only in mutual trust. And We are confident that this can be achieved, for it is a thing which not only is dictated by common sense, but is in itself most desirable and most fruitful of good.

--Pope John XXIII, Encyclical Letter "Pacem In Terris"[/quote]

[quote]"NO TO WAR"! War is not always inevitable. It is always a defeat for humanity. International law, honest dialogue, solidarity between States, the noble exercise of diplomacy: these are methods worthy of individuals and nations in resolving their differences. I say this as I think of those who still place their trust in nuclear weapons and of the all-too-numerous conflicts which continue to hold hostage our brothers and sisters in humanity. At Christmas, Bethlehem reminded us of the unresolved crisis in the Middle East, where two peoples, Israeli and Palestinian, are called to live side-by-side, equally free and sovereign, in mutual respect. Without needing to repeat what I said to you last year on this occasion, I will simply add today, faced with the constant degeneration of the crisis in the Middle East, that the solution will never be imposed by recourse to terrorism or armed conflict, as if military victories could be the solution. And what are we to say of the threat of a war which could strike the people of Iraq, the land of the Prophets, a people already sorely tried by more than twelve years of embargo? War is never just another means that one can choose to employ for settling differences between nations. As the Charter of the United Nations Organization and international law itself remind us, war cannot be decided upon, even when it is a matter of ensuring the common good, except as the very last option and in accordance with very strict conditions, without ignoring the consequences for the civilian population both during and after the military operations.

--Pope John Paul II[/quote]

[quote]Given the new weapons that make possible destructions that go beyond the combatant groups, today we should be asking ourselves if it is still licit to admit the very existence of a "just war."

--Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger, now Pope Benedict XVI[/quote]

[mortify]

Its unfortunate I find these threads so late in the game.

I don't know the circumstances of all the crusades but certainly there intention (at the beginning) was one of defense. That is, defending Christendom from a foe that was relentlessly pursuing war and conquer against the Christian faith and lands. There is nothing wrong with defending Christendom and the Faith. If we defend secular rights and governments we should all the more defend the faith. This of course does not mean everything that happened during the Crusades was justifiable, though the Crusades (at least the first wave) was jusified.

My two bits on the matter.

[ruso]

Era might: :applause:

Edited August 1, 2006 by ruso