Jesuits Put Up One World Religion Monument

[Justified Saint]

[quote name='Like a Child' post='1024668' date='Jul 14 2006, 01:38 PM']
Okay, so here's a thought. (Those older and wiser please chime in.)

Like Knight of Christ, I believe there is only one God. I have not forgotten the first commandment. But assuming again that God is greater and His love more encompassing than we could ever imagine, couldn't He be the God of all religions? Let's picture it this way: God, as we know, is the source of all light and all love in the universe. Perhaps His "light" is refracted down to us through all of the religions. Our various cultures on the planet find different ways of interpreting this "light" and understanding the Divine. Each religion gets their own glimpse of God and finds their own unique way of understanding Him --and each understanding has a semblance of truth to it (some more than others, maybe). Or we could compare the world's religions to paths up a mountain. There is only one God at the top, but different religions find different ways up to that one God.

I DO think there is such a thing as "strange gods." But I don't think the Divine entity celebrated in most world religions would qualify as such. As long as the religion incorporates compassion, love, humility, strong morals, reverence for life, and other positive ingredients that I am no doubt forgetting, I think chances are those religions are talking about the same God we are talking about. Perhaps practitioners of these holy religions are encountering Christ in their own worship and prayer life. Maybe they just don't know that it is He they are encountering. This seems plausible to me.

The last thing I want to say is that even those individuals who claim to believe in no god, are oftentimes better people than practicing Christians, Muslims, Jews, etc. My sister, for instance, has devoted her entire life to helping the poorest of the poor in Africa. In fact, she is willing to lay down her life for them, and has almost had to do so on a few occassions. Although she never goes to church, never prays (as far as I know), and doesn't enjoy the benefits of a relationship with Christ, I think she might very well be a better "Christian" than I am. She is LIVING the Gospel. It seems Christ's law is written in her heart without her even knowing it. I hope that someday she will come to embrace Christ, but would I say that she's guaranteed never to find salvation outside the Church. NO!!!
[/quote]

Your position sounds like an interesting blend of inclusivism and pluarlism. In any case, it is an extremely loose interpretation of the Church's teaching on salvation (if not at odds with it).

[Like a Child]

[quote name='Justified Saint' post='1024707' date='Jul 14 2006, 02:25 PM']
Your position sounds like an interesting blend of inclusivism and pluarlism. In any case, it is an extremely loose interpretation of the Church's teaching on salvation (if not at odds with it).
[/quote]


I agree. My ideas involve a loose interpretation of the Church's teaching. . .but I don't mean to impugn the Church's stance. I love the Church and have the utmost respect for its instruction. I guess I'm attempting to operate on a more theoretical plane. Is it not possible that God, unfathomable as He is in many ways, IS more inclusive and pluralistic than we believe? Can I even ask that question without getting a warning???

I wish I could take you to a place. . .to some sort of hypothetical debate room. . .where we could step away from doctrine and well-developed traditions and beliefs long enough to discuss God as if we were just ignorant creatures --which in many ways we are. That's not possible though, is it? I am willing to accept that maybe God's salvation comes only through Christ, as we know and interpret Him in the Catholic Church. This is not my personal belief, but I am willing to entertain the thought. Can you do the same for me? Or can we at least discuss the possibility?

I'm starting to think I should start this as a new topic somewhere else. . .sorry!

[Budge]

[quote]ut assuming again that God is greater and His love more encompassing than we could ever imagine, couldn't He be the God of all religions? L[size=5]et's picture it this way: God, as we know, is the source of all light and all love in the universe. Perhaps His "light" is refracted down to us through all of the religions. Our various cultures on the planet find different ways of interpreting this "light" and understanding the Divine. Each religion gets their own glimpse of God and finds their own unique way of understanding Him --and each understanding has a semblance of truth to it (some more than others, maybe). Or we could compare the world's religions to paths up a mountain.[/size] There is only one God at the top, but different religions find different ways up to that one God.[/quote]

[size=5]Wow you just managed to sum up in one paragraph here what [b]the Unitarian Universalist Association [I was a member for 13 years] teaches about God.[/b] Nothing you have typed is any different from what the UU's teach.[/size]

[b] "I am the way the truth and the life; NO MAN cometh unto the Father BUT BY ME." -- Jesus Christ (John 14:6)

[/b]

This is what I believe.

[Justified Saint]

Like a Child,

Your concerns and sympathies aren't lost here -- though perhaps you should start a different thread if you wanted to discuss it any further. Substantive discussion and dialogue would be considered hijacking by the author of this thread.

[Budge]

I started the thread, so its ok if she continues, I wont think it is hijacked.

[Like a Child]

I knew John 14 was going to appear eventually. . .but did you read what I suggested about Christ? Is it impossible to consider that maybe when a Buddhist meditates and feels the peace of the "Divine" Buddha nature and learns to live morally and compassionately, he is in fact experiencing Christ? Even if he is impoverished by not knowing or believing in Christ's sacrificial act, could he not be partaking in Christ's own salvation. Or even more so, couldn't a Jew or a Muslim be experiencing Christ when he or she prays and learns to submit and reaches out to their concept of the Divine.

Perhaps we are underestimating our Lord Jesus Christ by saying that is impossible. . .

Further on in John 14, Jesus says, "I am in the Father and the Father is in me." If Jesus is indeed in the Father, as we believe He is, aren't Jews and Muslims (them at least for sure!) in constant contact with Jesus, the Christ??? They believe in the God of Abraham. . .so somehow they must be touching Christ when they pray and when they love one another?!

[quote name='Budge' post='1024722' date='Jul 14 2006, 02:55 PM']
I started the thread, so its ok if she continues, I wont think it is hijacked.
[/quote]

Thanks, Budge. I'd never hijack you (at least not on purpose). I may sound like a UU, but you sound exactly like my beloved grandfather, who is a Nazarene minister. I love him, so I can't help but think you're alright too.

Hey Justified, is there any way to start a new topic but retain some of the dialogue we've had here in a new place? How would people know what we had said already?

[Socrates]

[quote name='Like a Child' post='1024726' date='Jul 14 2006, 04:08 PM']
I knew John 14 was going to appear eventually. . .but did you read what I suggested about Christ? Is it impossible to consider that maybe when a Buddhist meditates and feels the peace of the "Divine" Buddha nature and learns to live morally and compassionately, he is in fact experiencing Christ? Even if he is impoverished by not knowing or believing in Christ's sacrificial act, could he not be partaking in Christ's own salvation. Or even more so, couldn't a Jew or a Muslim be experiencing Christ when he or she prays and learns to submit and reaches out to their concept of the Divine.

Perhaps we are underestimating our Lord Jesus Christ by saying that is impossible. . .

Further on in John 14, Jesus says, "I am in the Father and the Father is in me." If Jesus is indeed in the Father, as we believe He is, aren't Jews and Muslims (them at least for sure!) in constant contact with Jesus, the Christ??? They believe in the God of Abraham. . .so somehow they must be touching Christ when they pray and when they love one another?!
Thanks, Budge. I'd never hijack you (at least not on purpose). I may sound like a UU, but you sound exactly like my beloved grandfather, who is a Nazarene minister. I love him, so I can't help but think you're alright too.

Hey Justified, is there any way to start a new topic but retain some of the dialogue we've had here in a new place? How would people know what we had said already?
[/quote]
While Christ may be able to work through extraordinary means (Baptism of Desire, etc.), your interpretation at least borders on religious indifferentism. If simply doing good deeds or praying to a divinity is all that is necessary for salvation, what is the point in Christ even founding a Church? (Or do you beleive that Christ founded a Church?)

Edited July 14, 2006 by Socrates

[Like a Child]

[quote name='Socrates' post='1024732' date='Jul 14 2006, 03:17 PM']
While Christ may be able to work through extraordinary means (Baptism of Desire, etc.), your interpretation at least borders on religious indifferentism. If simply doing good deeds or praying to a divinity is all that is necessary for salvation, what is the point in Christ even founding a Church? (Or do you beleive that Christ founded a Church?)
[/quote]

That one's DEFINITELY going to require a new thread. I'm getting in deep water here and I'm not sure I'm allowed to respond. When do the secret phatmass police come out? (No offense meant; I am actually just worried about what I am or am not allowed to say.)

At least Budge might appreciate my response to the founding question, to a certain extent anyway. . .I think. It would just involve talking about an upper or lower case "C".

[EcceNovaFacioOmni]

I do not think Christ works in other religions to the extent you are theorizing. I believe all people have access to Him if they look - but He cannot be found within another religion. We cannot both be right when our beliefs contradict. I could go into detail, but I'd rather not.

[homeschoolmom]

[quote name='Like a Child' post='1024726' date='Jul 14 2006, 05:08 PM']
Hey Justified, is there any way to start a new topic but retain some of the dialogue we've had here in a new place? How would people know what we had said already?
[/quote]
Click the "quote" button below each post you want to copy. Then, I believe, they will show up as you start your new thread.

[KnightofChrist]

[color="blue"]Okay, so here's a thought. (Those older and wiser please chime in.)

Like Knight of Christ, I believe there is only one God.
[/color]

[color="red"]Good that you believe in one god, but do you like me believe in the One True God? Or your own made up verison?[/color]

[color="blue"]
I have not forgotten the first commandment. But assuming again that God is greater and His love more encompassing than we could ever imagine, couldn't He be the God of all religions?[/color]

[color="red"]
No, He could not and would not be "the God of all religions" there is but One God and [u]One Faith that is true[/u], all others are false. While God loves us all He is a jealous God, and if you have not forgotten the first commandment then you have blatenly thrown it out.[/color]

[color="blue"]
Let's picture it this way: God, as we know, is the source of all light and all love in the universe. Perhaps His "light" is refracted down to us through all of the religions. Our various cultures on the planet find different ways of interpreting this "light" and understanding the Divine. Each religion gets their own glimpse of God and finds their own unique way of understanding Him --and each understanding has a semblance of truth to it (some more than others, maybe). Or we could compare the world's religions to paths up a mountain. There is only one God at the top, but different religions find different ways up to that one God.[/color]

[color="red"]
Let us not picture it any other way than what The Word of God teaches and Holy Mother Church, only they have the Truth. Your flaud opinion is at best a misunderstanding of what Holy Mother Church teaches, which is that all religions that believe in a god have "elements" of truth but not THE TRUTH. There is a difference, say I have elements of a toy car do I have real a car? No, only some parts of a toy which may resemble parts of the real thing but are useless with out a real whole car, and without the real whole truth, "elements of truth" will take you no where.[/color]

[color="blue"]
I DO think there is such a thing as "strange gods." But I don't think the Divine entity celebrated in most world religions would qualify as such. As long as the religion incorporates compassion, love, humility, strong morals, reverence for life, and other positive ingredients that I am no doubt forgetting, I think chances are those religions are talking about the same God we are talking about. Perhaps practitioners of these holy religions are encountering Christ in their own worship and prayer life. Maybe they just don't know that it is He they are encountering. This seems plausible to me.[/color]

[color="red"]
Again you misunderstand, a strange god(s) is anyother god other than one true God, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Again there is only one "Divine Entity" and He is God, all others are strange, fake, unreal, made up, and false. Compassion, love, humility, strong morals, reverence for life, and other positive ingredients are only elements of truth, and not The Truth. If a people do not believe in Jesus Christ as God then there is no chance in h.e. double hocky sticks they are "talking about same god we are talking about." Their god is fake, and will not save their souls.[/color]

[color="blue"]
The last thing I want to say is that even those individuals who claim to believe in no god, are oftentimes better people than practicing Christians, Muslims, Jews, etc. My sister, for instance, has devoted her entire life to helping the poorest of the poor in Africa. In fact, she is willing to lay down her life for them, and has almost had to do so on a few occassions. Although she never goes to church, never prays (as far as I know), and doesn't enjoy the benefits of a relationship with Christ, I think she might very well be a better "Christian" than I am. She is LIVING the Gospel. It seems Christ's law is written in her heart without her even knowing it. I hope that someday she will come to embrace Christ, but would I say that she's guaranteed never to find salvation outside the Church. NO!!![/color]

[color="red"]
But in the end my friend true Christians will end up better off than thouse that reject Christ. Dening the very exists of God is the greatest hate of all. I pray your dear sister will come to Christ before it is to late for her, no ones good works will get them into heaven. All people are guaranteed never to find salvation outside of Christ.[/color]

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='Budge' post='1024718' date='Jul 14 2006, 03:48 PM']
[b] "I am the way the truth and the life; NO MAN cometh unto the Father BUT BY ME." -- Jesus Christ (John 14:6)

[/b]

This is what I believe.
[/quote]


[size=7]This is also what Holy Mother Church teaches and believes.[/size]

[size=5]And I believe it as well.[/size]

[Like a Child]

Thank you for your responses, Knight. They are appreciated, and very familiar. I have heard them all of my life. Yet you seem to bring new meaning to the word "rigidity".

I still cannot believe that God would condemn just around 5 billion people to he -double -hockey -sticks though. Instead of enlightened, that appears to me to be small-minded. Let me remind you again that many Muslims, Jews, Hindus, Buddhists, not to mention Nazarenes, Jehovah's Witnesses, Baptists, and many, many non-Catholic Christians around the world believe that it is not THEY but YOU who are condemned. Doesn't that seem just a little bit interesting to you? Hello, EVERY orthodox member of EVERY faith thinks they have found the "right" the "one" the "true" religion. Because it's the one they know and its the one by which they have been indoctrinated.

Sorry you didn't like my analogy about refracted light. I believe you used your own though too. . .something about a toy car? Anyway, I didn't say this earlier, but I think Christ is, indeed, "where it's at." I believe that Jesus is the Son of God. (At least we agree on that, right? I acknowledge that my salvation comes from Him. I just have trouble saying definitively that no one else has salvation. I still contend that even with God's magnificent gift of Holy Mother Church and the Bible, we don't know everything. How could we?

To try to establish with some degree of certainty that God makes exceptions (meaning He saves some folks outside the "fold" so to speak) let me cite two scenarios. Actually, neither of these addresses other religions, but they do address the exclusivity of Christianity:

1. A woman lives and dies in the farthest reaches of the DRC (the Congo). She never gets the chance to hear of Christ, but she lives an impeccably upstanding and moral life. Is she condemned?
2. A young Native American boy grows up under the harsh hand of rigid, black-and-white thinking missionaries from Europe. Let's say for the sake of argument they badly abuse him (sexually and physically) for all of his years growing up. They tell him he is filthy and worthless, a piece of garbage. They demean him in every way and generally don't behave as Christians should behave at all. The boy grows up with a deep hatred of all things Christian in his heart. The missionaries planted that hatred in his heart. He never converts; he never even comes close. Is he condemned?

If you answer "NO" to either question, then you acknowledge that God must make exceptions at least some of the time!!! If He makes exceptions for such poor souls as these, might he not do the same for a Muslim, let's say, who loves God with all his heart and will, yet grew up in a MUSLIM culture and thus became MUSLIM. Just as you no doubt grew up in a Christian/Catholic culture and became a Catholic.

That's all I got for now.

[EcceNovaFacioOmni]

The Church teaches that those invincibly ignorant of the Gospel, if they seek the Truth and follow the law written on their hearts, can be saved through Christ and His Church. Their salvation is not accomplished through another religion.

[Like a Child]

[quote name='thedude' post='1024852' date='Jul 14 2006, 07:17 PM']
The Church teaches that those invincibly ignorant of the Gospel, if they seek the Truth and follow the law written on their hearts, can be saved through Christ and His Church. Their salvation is not accomplished through another religion.
[/quote]


Thanks. I am learning a lot about the Church from all of you. . .and that is a good thing. Honestly. I was naive, however, in thinking I could pull you guys out of your comfort zones and get you to talk about God from outside the confines of doctrine, and even if only momentarily, without beginning each sentence with the words, "the Church teaches". I realize now that this is not possible for those in the orthodox camp. That is not meant as an insult to anyone; I respect your firm commitment to the Church you love. I can see your love for her is great indeed.

On that note, I will bail on this thread. Thanks all!

God bless,
Like a Child

[EcceNovaFacioOmni]

I just wanted you to know that the Church does agree with you in that "outside the Church there is no salvation" is not to be understood in the strict sense.

I am not sure what you mean by discussing God outside of doctrine - but am interested nonetheless if you were to start a new thread.

[Justified Saint]

Wow, that happened fast and I missed it all!

For what it is worth, pluarlism in religious studies is nothing new and has occupied the minds of just about every major theologian/philosopher of religion for many years. There are quite plausible and resonable theories to support a vareity of positions (exclusivism, inclusivism etc.) so talking about getting one out of their "comfort zones" is both irrelevant and condescending.

There are no phatmass police that I am aware of, but that could be pretty cool -- good idea! (thinking of cool phatmass police apparel and music

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='Like a Child' post='1024847' date='Jul 14 2006, 08:04 PM']
Thank you for your responses, Knight. They are appreciated, and very familiar. I have heard them all of my life. Yet you seem to bring new meaning to the word "rigidity".

I still cannot believe that God would condemn just around 5 billion people to he -double -hockey -sticks though. Instead of enlightened, that appears to me to be small-minded. Let me remind you again that many Muslims, Jews, Hindus, Buddhists, not to mention Nazarenes, Jehovah's Witnesses, Baptists, and many, many non-Catholic Christians around the world believe that it is not THEY but YOU who are condemned. Doesn't that seem just a little bit interesting to you? Hello, EVERY orthodox member of EVERY faith thinks they have found the "right" the "one" the "true" religion. Because it's the one they know and its the one by which they have been indoctrinated.[/quote]

My referce to "h.e. double hockey sticks" was not referring to God's condemnation of 5 billion people, it was in response to your false view that all gods are God. [color="#FF0000"]Truth is not relative[/color], The Catholic Church is the only True Faith founded by Jesus Christ Himself. Muslims, Jews, Hindus, Buddhists, Nazarenes, Jehovah's Witnesses, Baptists, and non-Catholic Christians are simpley wrong, they are not the True Faith. Muslims, Jews, Hindus, and Buddhists denine Jesus Christ as Lord they can not be the true faith, non-Catholic Christians denine the Church Founded by Christ they can not be the true faith.

[quote name='Like a Child' post='1024847' date='Jul 14 2006, 08:04 PM']
Sorry you didn't like my analogy about refracted light. I believe you used your own though too. . .something about a toy car? Anyway, I didn't say this earlier, but I think Christ is, indeed, "where it's at." I believe that Jesus is the Son of God. (At least we agree on that, right? I acknowledge that my salvation comes from Him. I just have trouble saying definitively that no one else has salvation. I still contend that even with God's magnificent gift of Holy Mother Church and the Bible, we don't know everything. How could we?[/quote]

My understanding of other faiths having "elements of truth" is very different than yours which is all gods are God or something to that effect. You didnt understand my "toy car" refence? Ok, think of it this way Holy Mother Church has the complete Truth, the fullness of Truth, other faiths do not, they only have elements of truth that look similar to truth, but are not The Truth. I do agree Christ is, indeed, "where it's at."

[quote name='Like a Child' post='1024847' date='Jul 14 2006, 08:04 PM']
To try to establish with some degree of certainty that God makes exceptions (meaning He saves some folks outside the "fold" so to speak) let me cite two scenarios. Actually, neither of these addresses other religions, but they do address the exclusivity of Christianity:

1. A woman lives and dies in the farthest reaches of the DRC (the Congo). She never gets the chance to hear of Christ, but she lives an impeccably upstanding and moral life. Is she condemned?[/quote]

There is no guarantee of her salvation, only inside the Church founded by Christ is salvation guaranteed.

[quote name='Like a Child' post='1024847' date='Jul 14 2006, 08:04 PM']
2. A young Native American boy grows up under the harsh hand of rigid, black-and-white thinking missionaries from Europe. Let's say for the sake of argument they badly abuse him (sexually and physically) for all of his years growing up. They tell him he is filthy and worthless, a piece of garbage. They demean him in every way and generally don't behave as Christians should behave at all. The boy grows up with a deep hatred of all things Christian in his heart. The missionaries planted that hatred in his heart. He never converts; he never even comes close. Is he condemned?[/quote]

There is no guarantee of this poor boys salvation, only inside the Church founded by Christ is salvation guaranteed.

[quote name='Like a Child' post='1024847' date='Jul 14 2006, 08:04 PM']
If you answer "NO" to either question, then you acknowledge that God must make exceptions at least some of the time!!! If He makes exceptions for such poor souls as these, might he not do the same for a Muslim, let's say, who loves God with all his heart and will, yet grew up in a MUSLIM culture and thus became MUSLIM. Just as you no doubt grew up in a Christian/Catholic culture and became a Catholic.

That's all I got for now.
[/quote]

Again, There is no guarantee for a Muslim's salvation, only inside the Church founded by Christ is salvation guaranteed.

[Jnorm888]

[quote name='Budge' post='1019472' date='Jul 7 2006, 04:32 PM']
Your priest will tell you what mine did when I consulted him before I left the Catholic Church. He will make excuses for the apostasty.

Dont become an atheist.

Put your faith in God rather then men.

Read scripture, ALL THESE THINGS ARE WARNED OF IN REVELATION.

Rev 17:13 These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.
Act 5:29 Then Peter and the [other] apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men.

This verse is very important for these times

Many churches have gone apostate, not just the Catholic one.

It is essential that one put their total trust in God.
You do know that lying is a sin dont you.

Interesting that you see your faith in such a flippant manner.

I would never joke about ceasing to be a Christian.



Ive had Catholics tell theyd become an atheist if they lost faith in the Catholic church before.

In that case they WERENT joking.

Sad that so many have their faith in human institutions rather then in God.
[/quote]



The Jesuits are an order withen the Roman Communion and I assume that they all aren't that way. Just look at Father Pacwah who's on EWTN. Isn't he a Jesuit?


Anyway if you are a Universalist Uniterian then you shouldn't be pointing the finger at anybody being apostate.


You should point the finger at your own group before you point it at Rome.

And I am a Protestant saying this. Alot of Churches are dealing with Liberals...well the Eastern Orthodox looks pretty safe right now when it comes to Liberals, but alot of Churches are dealing with this internal fight.











INLOVE Jnorm

[Thumper]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1024924' date='Jul 15 2006, 12:51 AM']
There is no guarantee of her salvation, only inside the Church founded by Christ is salvation guaranteed.
There is no guarantee of this poor boys salvation, only inside the Church founded by Christ is salvation guaranteed.
Again, There is no guarantee for a Muslim's salvation, only inside the Church founded by Christ is salvation guaranteed.
[/quote]

Knight, could you please clarify what you mean by "guaranteed" savlation within the Church?

Paragraph 14 of Lumen Gentium: "Even though incorporated into the Church, one who does not however persevere in charity is not saved. He remains indeed in the bosom of the Church, but
'in body' not 'in heart.'"

Instead of stressing a guarantee of salvation within the Church, I think it's more accurate to say that Christ has given the Church the fullness of the means of salvation.