Jesuits Put Up One World Religion Monument

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='Thumper' post='1024974' date='Jul 15 2006, 08:25 AM']
Knight, could you please clarify what you mean by "guaranteed" savlation within the Church?

Paragraph 14 of Lumen Gentium: "Even though incorporated into the Church, one who does not however persevere in charity is not saved. He remains indeed in the bosom of the Church, but
'in body' not 'in heart.'"

Instead of stressing a guarantee of salvation within the Church, I think it's more accurate to say that Christ has given the Church the fullness of the means of salvation.
[/quote]

There is no guarantee of salivation outside of the Church. As for within, the Bible says, and as Holy Mother Church teaches, I am already saved (Rom. 8:24, Eph. 2:5–8), but I’m also being saved (1 Cor. 1:8, 2 Cor. 2:15, Phil. 2:12), and I will be saved in the end(Rom. 5:9–10, 1 Cor. 3:12–15). Like Paul I'm working out my salvation in fear and trembling (Phil. 2:12), with absolute confidence in the promises of Christ (Rom. 5:2, 2 Tim. 2:11–13).

[Jaime]

[quote]There is no guarantee of salivation outside of the Church [/quote]


One of the best typos EVER!!!


<------ smilie in the Church

[homeschoolmom]

didn't that happen elsewhere on the phorum recently?

[KnightofChrist]

Miy finigers jsut wnot lete me tpye corectly... woopisie

[Laudate_Dominum]

[MissScripture]

[quote name='Like a Child' post='1024847' date='Jul 14 2006, 09:04 PM']
To try to establish with some degree of certainty that God makes exceptions (meaning He saves some folks outside the "fold" so to speak) let me cite two scenarios. Actually, neither of these addresses other religions, but they do address the exclusivity of Christianity:

1. A woman lives and dies in the farthest reaches of the DRC (the Congo). She never gets the chance to hear of Christ, but she lives an impeccably upstanding and moral life. Is she condemned?
2. A young Native American boy grows up under the harsh hand of rigid, black-and-white thinking missionaries from Europe. Let's say for the sake of argument they badly abuse him (sexually and physically) for all of his years growing up. They tell him he is filthy and worthless, a piece of garbage. They demean him in every way and generally don't behave as Christians should behave at all. The boy grows up with a deep hatred of all things Christian in his heart. The missionaries planted that hatred in his heart. He never converts; he never even comes close. Is he condemned?

If you answer "NO" to either question, then you acknowledge that God must make exceptions at least some of the time!!! If He makes exceptions for such poor souls as these, might he not do the same for a Muslim, let's say, who loves God with all his heart and will, yet grew up in a MUSLIM culture and thus became MUSLIM. Just as you no doubt grew up in a Christian/Catholic culture and became a Catholic.

That's all I got for now.
[/quote]

They are not "exceptions" so much as they are things decided by God because He is omnipotent. He sees what is in their heart, which we can never see. It isn't like God has this giant rule book and at the back He has a list of "If you were abused, then you are excused from believing this, this and the other thing." But He knows what went on in your life, and is therefore able to judge. It seems that we are sort of reducing this to our human level of thinking about "fairness" and that is not God's level. It isn't a generalized thing. Each life is different and God knows, it isn't for us to judge.

[pyranima]

[quote name='Budge' post='1019455' date='Jul 7 2006, 04:05 PM']
When I was back in the Catholic Church, I had to face facts that their interfaith teachings were a delusion. Since I had already spent years in a Unitarian Universalist church, {I was a cradle Catholic} I couldnt be fooled by such words like dialogue and interdependence. I know they werent Christian words. You need to beleive that CHRIST IS THE ONLY WAY. I made the decision to place all of my trust in Jesus Christ. If you leave the Catholic Church you do not have to be an atheist, You can turn to Him totally.

The Roman Catholic church is fulfilling Revelation 17.
[/quote]
One word Rome-O-Phobic.

the Churches teaching in interfaith dialoge is that we should listen to what others have to say, but it does not mean that we have to agree with them. we want a conversation the only way to do that is for both sides to be heard. the Churches offical teaching is nothing like what has been pracited since vatican II (note i did not say Vatican II was wrong). Jesus is the way the truth and the light and as such anyone who is Christians should be a memeber of the Church that Christ founded. Jesuits are dieing out because they have all but abandoned orthodoxy. it is also not a one world religous monument but a monument of peace there is a big difference. one is the idea of a one world religion the other is that even though we are of different religions we should live in peace. you have made it very clear by several of your posts that you do not care about what is true, you dont care to follow Christ were he will take you. you for whatever reason dislike Orthodoxy, your false religous standard is too simple, and simple religious fail, that is why there are so many protestant denom. being Catholic is turning to Christ Totally, it is the complete giving of oneself to Christ without reservation. Ideas such as Once saved always saved, Faith alone (an antiChrist doctrine {see james 2:24}), and sola Scriptora, are false doctrines. they have no common sesne to them whatsoever. Orthodox turn to those who came before us to help understand what Scripture means, this is why we look to the Church Fathers, we also do not deny things that are in Scripture simply because they do not make us feel good or we do not like them. we also have an understanding that scripture is not sufficent because it does not address modern problems. it is also in error to assume that the bible contains all things that the Apostles were taught, they would not have addressed things that did not need to be addressed things that were assumed to be known. for example liturgy, or the immaculate conception. they also would not have used certian words such a trinity, that is a development of doctrine and of Language. that is how language and doctrine develop, it is contemplated then how it works is rooted out and finally it is given a single term to simplify the def. it is just like any word we give a complex idea a single word to convey simply the definition.

here is an exercize that will demonstrate what i mean, contemplate the word Is, what it means and all that it implys. you will be amazed.

[goldenchild17]

[quote name='Akalyte' post='1019431' date='Jul 7 2006, 03:26 PM']
That monument just turned my stomache. I have a feeling all this focus on other religions by some in our Holy Church is going to make me leave it one day. Its going to push me into Atheism.

I believe the Catholic Church is the only "way". Just as the Church has always taught. It just seems like we are sliding away from that. I guess Christ is not the way the truth and the life and the only way to the Father, I guess buddha, muhhamed, beetles, trees and whatever else people worship lead there as well. HERESY!

I'm not going to lie I find this troubling.
[/quote]

You and me both brother, you and me both...

Budge, you have a lot of interesting stuff that you have put up since you've been here. Even though you and I are operating from perhaps polar opposites in my opinion I do agree with much of what you have put up. I think you have come to a wrong conclusion, but the evidence you post is intriguing. However, I will say that as a word of advice, whatever you are trying to promote you aren't doing it in the best way you could be. Try a different approach, calmer. I don't believe many will agree with you because even though you have good information you draw the exact wrong conclusion from the evidence. But I enjoy reading your stuff, keep it coming... At least as long as they'll allow you to keep it up. I'm surprised they have allowed this Catholic bashing to continue for so long in light of my requests, but so be it .

[Socrates]

[quote name='goldenchild17' post='1029553' date='Jul 23 2006, 01:48 PM']
Budge, you have a lot of interesting stuff that you have put up since you've been here. Even though you and I are operating from perhaps polar opposites in my opinion I do agree with much of what you have put up. I think you have come to a wrong conclusion, but the evidence you post is intriguing. However, I will say that as a word of advice, whatever you are trying to promote you aren't doing it in the best way you could be. Try a different approach, calmer. I don't believe many will agree with you because even though you have good information you draw the exact wrong conclusion from the evidence. But I enjoy reading your stuff, keep it coming... At least as long as they'll allow you to keep it up. I'm surprised they have allowed this Catholic bashing to continue for so long in light of my requests, but so be it .
[/quote]
Thus confirming my observations that schismatic "rad trads" are merely the latest breed of anti-Catholic protestants.
I have long noted that despite what they might think, they are far from "polar opposites," both sharing a common disdain for Rome and Papal authority, and relying on prideful willful ignorance and misinformation, rather than facing the Church with humility and an open mind.

You might try reading the actual teachings of the Church, rather than pulling all your "information" from anti-Catholic sources.

[ruso]

I like me this monument, clearly in favor of the talk among religions, the Jesuits are not the only in proposing it, also the Franciscans, the IVE.........
But we cannot forget that our faith is the true one, without falling in the proud one because of it.

Edited July 26, 2006 by ruso

[son_of_angels]

Doctrine is not a comfort zone, it's a salvation zone. It is the only place where you can remain in safety "against th'encircling gloom" (Ven. Newman) and everlasting damnation.

As for the monument, fact is, every one of those symbols, excepting perhaps the star of David, is blasphemous and offensive to God. As a Christian, I would fear God's wrath if I were to wear a crescent symbolizing Islam, or if I erected one in my yard. There is no exception to those Christians engaging in "interfaith" work.
Even if it does symbolize the final authority of Christ, it is so ambiguous that it's ambiguity could in fact be considered heretical, in so much as it confuses people about Church dogma.

[goldenchild17]

[quote name='Socrates' post='1029625' date='Jul 23 2006, 05:31 PM']
Thus confirming my observations that schismatic "rad trads" are merely the latest breed of anti-Catholic protestants.
I have long noted that despite what they might think, they are far from "polar opposites," both sharing a common disdain for Rome and Papal authority, and relying on prideful willful ignorance and misinformation, rather than facing the Church with humility and an open mind.

You might try reading the actual teachings of the Church, rather than pulling all your "information" from anti-Catholic sources.
[/quote]

Okay. I'll continue to do that as I have throughout the whole process. You guys really and truly understand nothing about the actual "rad trads" at all. You can confirm your observations all you wish. It doesn't change anything. Maybe the people here could open their eyes and be a little more inviting to discussing things with the "fanatics" such as I apparently am. Until then you will gain no further insight at all.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='goldenchild17' post='1034496' date='Jul 30 2006, 08:39 PM']
Okay. I'll continue to do that as I have throughout the whole process. You guys really and truly understand nothing about the actual "rad trads" at all. You can confirm your observations all you wish. It doesn't change anything. Maybe the people here could open their eyes and be a little more inviting to discussing things with the "fanatics" such as I apparently am. Until then you will gain no further insight at all.
[/quote]

The issue with "rad-trads" is not doctrine- its pride, obedience and trust. You can argue doctrine til your blue in the face, but until the attitude changes you won't get far at all. Rad-trads assume because they they don't understand something, the Church is somehow wrong, never thinking maybe their flawed and limited comprehension is in error. The idea of context and worldview and subtlety of thought is missing. Rad-trads act like the Church is to be taken on trial, it has to proof itself to someones satisfaction, or jump thru hoops before they will accept its teaching is consistant to its understanding.

For me, I don't have to reconcile every word of the last 2000 years and ignor development of our understanding of the faith, before I will accept the authority of the Church. I don't assume the Church got it wrong and somehow rad-trads are special and got it right.
I trust the Church founded by Jesus Christ and led by the Holy Spirit to get it right. They don't.

[mortify]

I wouldn't fret over what looks to be large paper cut-outs. Hardly monumental stuff.

But what's up with the Jesuit order?

[goldenchild17]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1034704' date='Jul 31 2006, 06:44 AM']
The issue with "rad-trads" is not doctrine- its pride, obedience and trust. You can argue doctrine til your blue in the face, but until the attitude changes you won't get far at all. Rad-trads assume because they they don't understand something, the Church is somehow wrong, never thinking maybe their flawed and limited comprehension is in error. The idea of context and worldview and subtlety of thought is missing. Rad-trads act like the Church is to be taken on trial, it has to proof itself to someones satisfaction, or jump thru hoops before they will accept its teaching is consistant to its understanding.

For me, I don't have to reconcile every word of the last 2000 years and ignor development of our understanding of the faith, before I will accept the authority of the Church. I don't assume the Church got it wrong and somehow rad-trads are special and got it right.
I trust the Church founded by Jesus Christ and led by the Holy Spirit to get it right. They don't.
[/quote]

Again though, this based on absolutely nothing... Eventually both sides will come to realize just how badly they understand the other side. This goes for the Trad side as well. I have met way too many people on that side as well who assume all the Novus Ordo catholics are out to get them, and other such nonsense. If we are ever going to fix this problem, one way or the other, both sides will have to start being more open to actually making their concerns known to the other side. I know that there is something about the Novus Ordo catholics that is not bad, that is good. I know there are good people there that have no hidden agenda. But I know this only because I once was one. Had I been born into where I am now I would not know this, and would never believe it based on how people on this side feel. But it's the same when I was Novus Ordo. This place especially needs to shape up and think about how they are approaching this situation...

Edited August 1, 2006 by goldenchild17

[ruso]

I'm in Church thanks fo liberal Jesuit priest .
And my family. Wife and two childrens.

[Budge]

If I believed like the Jesuits, I would have remained Unitarian Universalist, that is basically what they are at the core.

Im glad there are a few on here who are now discerning that something is wrong with this monument.

[quote]
I think you have come to a wrong conclusion, but the evidence you post is intriguing.[/quote]

Thanks...[I think;]
[quote]
However, I will say that as a word of advice, whatever you are trying to promote you aren't doing it in the best way you could be. Try a different approach, calmer. [/quote]

Theres too many CALM folks in the face of the breaking of the First Commandment. I include a bunch of wishy-wash Prots on that list.
[quote]
You might try reading the actual teachings of the Church, rather than pulling all your "information" from anti-Catholic sources.

[/quote]

This was posted right from the horse's mouth was it not?

Direct from the Jesuit website.

You all are too hard on the rad Trads, they really are correct about how Catholicism has changed. Their problem is they still believe the Catholic Church is the One True Church instead of obeying Gods commandment to Come out of Her.

You know too much obedience is not a good thing, if you follow your church leaders right into the arms of the interfaith antichrist gospel.



[quote]

This is also what Holy Mother Church teaches and believes.

And I believe it as well.
[/quote]

Actually Romes version of that is far different then the born again Christians view of Christs teaching.
[quote]
“It [b]will be in the sincere practice of what is good in their own religious traditions[/b] and by following the dictates of their own conscience that [b]members of other religions respond positively to God’s invitation and receive salvation in Jesus Christ even while they do not recognize or acknowledge him as their Saviour[/b].(*4)[/quote]


(*4) Pontifical Council for Interreligious Dialogue-Congregation for The Evangelization of Peoples, Instruction Dialogue and Proclamation, 19 May 1991 n29; L’Ossertavore Romano English Edition, 1 July 1991, p.III).

Uh no, that is not how it works..

[Justified Saint]

[quote name='Budge' post='1038096' date='Aug 5 2006, 07:10 AM']

You know too much obedience is not a good thing, if you follow your church leaders right into the arms of the interfaith antichrist gospel.

[/quote]

Obedience is at the heart of the Gospel, and only a belief in the visible Church of Christ on earth can actualize that obedience -- but that doesn't mean blind adherence to its human agents and leaders. Outside of that context obedience seems meaningless.

Edited August 8, 2006 by Justified Saint

[Eutychus]

[quote]Obedience is at the heart of the Gospel, and only a belief in the visible Church of Christ on earth can actualize that obedience -- but that doesn't mean blind adherence to its human agents and leaders. Outside of that context obedience seems meaningless. [/quote]

Do you ever write in normal english?

I read you, and you read like a Jesuit qualifying every word as it slithers out of his mouth....

Are you in training to be a spokesperson for Opus Dei or some other group that requires measured preprogrammed language be spoken?

Just wondering, honestly...

[Justified Saint]

[quote name='Eutychus' post='1039943' date='Aug 8 2006, 05:39 PM']
Just wondering, honestly...
[/quote]

Honesty and wonder usually require humility which I cannot say you have any. Often your posts are saturated with these kind of angry and insulting remarks but at least they are accompanied with an argument or point. This post is just insulting.