Latinos Leaving the Catholic Church

[thessalonian]

Yep, that's the one.

[curtins]

[quote name='Budge' post='1038132' date='Aug 5 2006, 11:17 AM']
I believe these Latino Catholics are looking for stability, meaning and truth in their lives . . .

. . . and finding nothing but confusion, politics and dysfunction in the Catholic Church.
So wonder they are leaving.....
[/quote]


Disfunction??? HA. How about the disfunction of protestantism where when 2 people have conflicting views they form 2 new churches? How about the disfunction of protestantism where the Anglican church can't make up its mind about whether women should be bishops or if bishops should be gay? How about the disfunction that the Anglican church is splitting because some don't want women and gay bishops and some do? How about the disfunction of protestantism that is flying by the seat of your pants and putting in and taking out what is conveniant for you and putting it under the fancy big word name of "sola scriptura". How about the disfunction of protestantism that is ZERO tradition and authority on WHAT IS TRUTH.

[DAF]

Hear hear. *rabble rabble*

[Justified Saint]

From a sociological standpoint, the phenomena seems an expected result of assimilation insofar as Hispanic communities are assimilative (i.e. later generations of converted Latinos who have material success and adapted to the "American way"). For immigrants, a change in religion symbolizes one's own transformation from a migrant worker to living the American dream.

That, and many Catholic priests who minister to Latino populations in the States often have very poor Spanish-speaking skills. This isn't any kind of cause, but it certainly doesn't help and it indicates some of the apathy and the "taken-for-grantedness" toward Latinos that certainly seems to characterize some portions of the Catholic heirarchy in the Americas.

[Eutychus]

[quote] . For immigrants, a change in religion symbolizes one's own transformation from a migrant worker to living the American dream.[/quote]

Indeed. Looking for FREEDOM they come here, obtain economic freedom and hence prosperity, and then want spiritual freedom and become mere Christians, leaving the oppression of the Catholic Church behind like the bad memories they had of Mexico.

What was lacking before, was indigenous hispanic non-Catholic vibrant communities. Now that they are well established, a riverswimmer can cast off the priests, nuns, and bishops, and still stay within a supportive and understanding linquistic community.

I suspec that within a few years, the MAJORITY of those coming here, will be, within 10 years, Pentecostal or Evangelical Christians, and the Catholic Church will be encouraging some new group to come here to fill those empty pews and collection baskets.

[franciscanheart]

Protestant churches don't challenge you the way the Catholic Church does. They tend to drop all things that are not feel-good or easy. It doesn't suprise me that people turn away from the Truth to go to something easier. It's part of our fallen nature.

[dUSt]

Any ex-Catholic who has left the church has only made the church stronger. It would be awesome if only the truly devout remained in the church, because then we would be a better example of Christ, and in-turn, build up His church in even greater numbers then before.

What kind of Protestants do ex-Catholics make, when they were so weak in their faith when they were Catholic?

[Justified Saint]

[quote name='Eutychus' post='1039733' date='Aug 8 2006, 09:21 AM']
Indeed. Looking for FREEDOM they come here, obtain economic freedom and hence prosperity, and then want spiritual freedom and become mere Christians, leaving the oppression of the Catholic Church behind like the bad memories they had of Mexico.

What was lacking before, was indigenous hispanic non-Catholic vibrant communities. Now that they are well established, a riverswimmer can cast off the priests, nuns, and bishops, and still stay within a supportive and understanding linquistic community.

I suspec that within a few years, the MAJORITY of those coming here, will be, within 10 years, Pentecostal or Evangelical Christians, and the Catholic Church will be encouraging some new group to come here to fill those empty pews and collection baskets.
[/quote]

Eutychus,

It is revealing that you espouse the materialistic reduction of religion.

[IcePrincessKRS]

[quote name='dUSt' post='1039745' date='Aug 8 2006, 12:52 PM']
What kind of Protestants do ex-Catholics make, when they were so weak in their faith when they were Catholic?
[/quote]

Good point...

[Eutychus]

[quote name='Eutychus' post='1039733' date='Aug 8 2006, 09:21 AM']Protestant churches don't challenge you the way the Catholic Church does. They tend to drop all things that are not feel-good or easy. It doesn't suprise me that people turn away from the Truth to go to something easier. It's part of our fallen nature.
[/quote]

Poppycock.

Horsefeathers.

Nonsense.

Just plain ignorant, and untrue.

[u]Do you have ANY IDEA WHATSOEVER that these people are gravitating to?[/u] Most on fire pentecostal church members, go to church on Sunday morning for two hours, Sunday night for one hour, Wednesday night for two hours, and a three hour bible study during the week sometime.

Pentecostals give on average, $4,000 per annum per family. Roman cheapskates last year according to the USCCB donated a whopping $600 per family. The Catholics are RICHER on average than most Pentecostals, yet the level of giving is UNDER 1% of gross income, the LOWEST level of giving of ANY church tracked.

It makes me angry how IGNORANT Catholics claim people leave the Catholic Church for "the easy way out" ... NO, the lazybones, sinners, STAY, and pretend they are following the rules, the priests pretend you are good catholics and give KNOWN sinners communion, and even those promoting abortions are lining up and getting the snack that binds, people wear qwerty rainbow sashes into your churches and no one does a darned thing about it. If those same people tried this in an onfire real Pentecostal church, the members wouild pick them up by the scruff of thier necks, and physically toss them out into the streets if any were dumb enough to even TRY it in the first place.

Most of us don't drink, smoke, gamble, or ANY of the so called "soft sins" that your church winks at, and with booze and gambling, actually allowed ON the church premises and used for fun and fundraisers. { sin for fun and profit, sponsored BY the church itself...amazing...}

So, stop with the outright LIES, please, if you want to compare WHY people LEAVE the Catholic Church for Pentecostal churches, I will let OUR SUNDAY VISITOR answer for me....this was written by Ralph Martin and although some years old, is as true today, no, moreso, than the day our Sunday Visitor published it.

[quote]Hispanic Catholics in particular are leaving the Catholic Church for these Evangelical, Pentecostal, and independent charismatic churches. A 1986 Gallup Poll revealed that in the preceding 10 years 5 million Hispanics joined Evangelical and Pentecostal churches-approximately 30 percent of the 17 million Hispanics in the United States. Of these, 64 percent converted to these groups from Catholicism.

[u]Catholic leaders often "blame" Protestants for proselytizing Catholics and commend us for the "richness" of our faith. However, we need to face the embarrassing question of why so many millions of Catholics around the world are finding a reality of Christian life in Evangelical and Pentecostal churches that they did not find in their local Catholic church.[/u]

[color="#660000"][b]The wrong kind of Catholic pride twists confidence in the truth and the treasures of Catholicism into complacency. It blinds us to the impoverished state of many Catholic institutions and many Catholics' lives.

I know of many Catholics who have fallen away from their faith-or who were living in parishes where the gospel was not being preached and morality was not being taught and no support was being given for family life-and who found a living, personal relationship with Jesus Christ in a Baptist or Assembly of God congregation.
[u]
Rather than condemning the Protestants for proselytism, we Catholics should consider the possibility that people might find more practical help in the Protestant churches for avoiding hell and attaining heaven than they were getting in their Catholic parishes.[/u][/b][/color]

Personally, I am fully convinced of the truth of Catholicism. I would never counsel anyone to leave the Catholic Church. But don't we have enough fear of God to tremble at the sight of people leaving the Catholic Church in order to find teaching from the Bible and support for raising their children for Christ?[/quote]

And THAT in a nutshell is WHY most leave, they want the real thing, they want MORE they want faith, they want a christian community, they want structure, they want to learn the bible, they want to trust moral preachers and deacons, they want their kids morally taught, they want to have a SAY in how their church is run, they want FINANCIAL TRANSPARENCY, they want to hire the best men for pastors, and be able to remove those that fall short, for whatever reasons.....

And they get NONE of that in most Catholic Church parishes.

Edited August 9, 2006 by Eutychus

[Mateo el Feo]

[quote name='Eutychus']Pentecostals give on average, $4,000 per annum per family. Roman cheapskates last year according to the USCCB donated a whopping $600 per family. The Catholics are RICHER on average than most Pentecostals, yet the level of giving is UNDER 1% of gross income, the LOWEST level of giving of ANY church tracked.[/quote]With statements like these, it's a wonder that you malign the Catholic Church by claiming that it is focused on "fill(ing) those collection baskets."

[quote]It makes me angry how IGNORANT Catholics claim people leave the Catholic Church for "the easy way out"[/quote]Everyone has his own reason for leaving. You may personally associate with ex-Catholics who embrace fundamentalism or pentacostalism; but ex-Catholics don't all become fundamentalists/pentacostals. From the Catholic perspective on ex-Catholics--as opposed to your narrow viewpoint--the statement is anything but ignorant.

Edited August 9, 2006 by Mateo el Feo

[Aloysius]

Catholics who leave for more liberal protestant churches do take the easy road out. Protestantism is not united, and as such cannot be clumped together. It all depends where you go in protestantdom.

and by the way: Jesus Christ drank alcohol. So did all the Apostles. So did the Virgin Mary. So did saints throughout 2000 years of the Christian Church as it grew around the Mediteranean cultures. this is not a "soft sin", it is a NON-sin. The sin is in excess, just like an excess of food is sin but food itself is not sin. Same goes for smoking and gambling: puritanism in this regard does nothing but breed more violent paganism because people recognize that puritanism is completely un-natural, sub-natural, and sub-human.

anyway, I commend protestant churches for the good that they do. But I absolutely condemn and detest them (in the same way Jesus does) for going contrary to the wishes of Jesus Christ that His Church may be one. this lively and vibrant christian community exists throughout the Catholic Church in many places, not the least of which is Latin America itself (notice it's not until the latinos come to the US that they convert in large numbers). Jesus Christ hates that you keep His Church divided. Jesus Christ most hates that you (seem to) think the whole beaver dam thing is a competition.

It's sort of a love-hate relationship ... they could do so much more good if they were united to the Church Jesus built

Here's the real deal: the Catholic Church in the United States is sick. We need help. But all you do is cry "we give more money to our churches than you do to yours" and "we have a better christian community than you". God help you for that type of attitude... nay, God forgive you for that kind of sinful attitidue. But the Catholic Church in Latin America is alive and well; it is immigrant latinos coming into the US finding a US Church that does not have the same vibrant christian community as they had when they were in Latin America. your vibrant pentecostal communities could be converting into the Church and re-invigorating her with new life: instead you choose to reject the Apostles of the twelve Apostles of Christ.

And he who rejects them rejects Jesus Christ, no matter how much you shout to Him "Lord, Lord"

One more comment: I find it amusing that you label the clergy of the Catholic Church prideful... but then move on to say it is good that you have a prideful laity who acts just like our clergy do: having a say in the church and assigning/removing pastors et cetera et cetera. I suppose you think it is worse to have a group of people who believe they have a heavy burden on them to tend to the Lord's sheep correctly according to guidelines outside of theirselves than to have a laity who control their pastors and beliefs based solely upon their guts.

Paul instituted Timothy as a pastor in a location where Paul was not a member of the Church, where Paul didn't even live (except, perhaps, for a short period of time during travels). Timothy remained the pastor there because Paul had set him up as a pastor there. Timothy was not elected. Timothy could not be "fired" from his community. The people of the time understood: Timothy represented Paul who represented Christ. What Timothy taught would be what Paul would teach, and by extension what Christ would teach.

[littleflower+JMJ]

[quote name='Justified Saint' post='1039520' date='Aug 7 2006, 10:48 PM']
From a sociological standpoint, the phenomena seems an expected result of assimilation insofar as Hispanic communities are assimilative (i.e. later generations of converted Latinos who have material success and adapted to the "American way"). For immigrants, a change in religion symbolizes one's own transformation from a migrant worker to living the American dream.

That, and many Catholic priests who minister to Latino populations in the States often have very poor Spanish-speaking skills. This isn't any kind of cause, but it certainly doesn't help and it indicates some of the apathy and the "taken-for-grantedness" toward Latinos that certainly seems to characterize some portions of the Catholic heirarchy in the Americas.
[/quote]

Thats funny because my bishop was born in Ireland, grew up there, still has his thick Irish Accent and speaks better Spanish that most around these parts. The same is for many priests.


[quote name='Eutychus' post='1039733' date='Aug 8 2006, 11:21 AM']
Indeed. Looking for FREEDOM they come here, obtain economic freedom and hence prosperity, and then want spiritual freedom and become mere Christians, leaving the oppression of the Catholic Church behind like the bad memories they had of Mexico. [/quote]

You obviously have no idea about them if this is what your thinking. Do you have any idea how Mexico is??

For years and years, it has been the Catholic Church that has saved and protected the people of Mexico, from the dangers they have faced. It has been the one thing to always helped them and been there for them. If they didn't want to be Catholic, they didn't have to move anywhere to do that.

[quote]
What was lacking before, was indigenous hispanic non-Catholic vibrant communities. Now that they are well established, a riverswimmer can cast off the priests, nuns, and bishops, and still stay within a [b]supportive and understanding[/b] linquistic community. [/quote]

A riverswimmer? Is that all you can call them? Wow. That was real supportive.

[quote]I suspec that within a few years, the MAJORITY of those coming here, will be, within 10 years, Pentecostal or Evangelical Christians, and the Catholic Church will be encouraging some new group to come here to fill those empty pews and collection baskets.
[/quote]

I'm sorry but I disagree. With the future, the majority I believe will be Catholics and stay Catholics. Obviously you do not understand their culture if you feel they would just drop something that is a part of their major identity, nor have such a mistaken view of their relationship with the Church. The Catholic Church will continue to be a comfort to these people in Mexico.


As for the Sunday Visitor, I did not see any mention of Latinos.

For the sake of adding to this topic, my diocese is seeing a very fast growth in the Latino population and its only getting bigger.

Numerous parishes have added 2 to 3 more Spanish masses for the Latino poplution and its amazing because every single spanish mass is packed to the full capacity. It really is beautiful to see!

[Guest Pepe]

I am a latino. For a while it was hard to identify with the Catholic Church here in America. It is something completely differenty from the one we are used to from our homeland. That and the fact that sometimes the priests or the people in charge of the parish don't speak spanish, or have a very negative attitude toward us. I have been called every racial slur and insult you can think off. In my own parish. Not from clergy, but from parishoners who feel we are here to dominate, take over, whatever you want. From that aspect it is really easy to see why Latino leave the church. Why go where you are not wanted? What happens? Other churches pick up on this, learn spanish and lure them in with money, a job, among other things. Most of the time they leave the church not becuase of their faith, but because of convinience. It has happend to friends of mine. After you truly experience the majesty of the Eucharist you are never the same. That is why I have never left. After a talk with my pastor about the negative comments going around he sprung into action and put a stop to them. He is an incredible pastor. There is a saying in spanish, "Catolico Ignorante Pronto Protestante." An Ignorant Catholic is Soon A Protestant. It's true. Prod churches are filled with people who don't understand the faith, or misinterpret the scriptures. Archbishop Fulton Sheen said, 99 percent of the people who "hate" the Catholic church don't hate it, rather they hate the misconception they have of it. True knowledge of the scripture can not come from just reading the bible alone. I can not be a surgeon just because I pick up a medical book and read it. I have to have the proper guidance and training. All these "prods" are self magestering. (I think I invented a word here). Each prod church is it's own magisterium. Who would you rather follow, a magisterium this only a couple of decades old at best, or a magisterium that is 2000 years old?

The Catholic Church was the first Christian Church, historical fact. It has withstood test after test after test. Latinos will continue to leave, just like prods will continue to come back to Rome. But eventually we will all be one faith again. Guess which one? The pentecostal church that used to be a bank, or the Roman Catholic Church that was founded by Christ?

[Anomaly]

[quote name='Aloysius' post='1040036' date='Aug 8 2006, 10:45 PM']
Catholics who leave for more liberal protestant churches do take the easy road out. Protestantism is not united, and as such cannot be clumped together. It all depends where you go in protestantdom.[/quote]That is an unfair characterization and erroneous generalization.
Catholics, as well as any other follower of any other religion, whether Christian or non-Christian, just as easily misrepresent their religion's teachings in thought, word, and deed.

I've seen it, and if you are honest, you know you've seen it. People can do great harm to another's faith, whether they are clerics, or the glaring person standing next to you in the pew.

The Temporal Church is a mixture of theology, culture, and social interaction. Divine and Human. I've belonged to parishes with large Hispanic population and parishes with small Hispanic populations. I've belonged to incredibly wealthy parishes and 'mission' parishes.

Hispanics leave the Catholic Church for real and painful reasons, not just 'taking the easy road out.' I also know of Hispanics that have left other denominations and have come to my most recent Catholic parish because they've been more welcomed.