Latinos Leaving the Catholic Church

[Eutychus]

[quote] The first books of the New Testament were not written until about 30 years after Christ ascended into Heaven.
[/quote]

Now the best scholarship is moving those dates increasingly closer. Some think the earliest were actually written within 15 years, the last before 70 AD, except for Revelation.

[quote]But anyway, since Budge brought it up perhaps he could explain the unbiblical practice of going to service three times a week. [/quote]

Ah....sorry, NOW I get it.

You are quibbling over the number THREE as opposed to one, or seven.

Got it.

You are right, THREE isn't magical.

FWIW, tonight is wednesday, got home from tonights service started at 7 ended at 8:45. Praise and worship music for 35 minutes the rest was a seminar on evangelism.

Edited August 10, 2006 by Eutychus

[ReinnieR]

[quote name='Eutychus' post='1040502' date='Aug 9 2006, 08:16 PM']
Now the best scholarship is moving those dates increasingly closer. Some think the earliest were actually written within 15 years, the last before 70 AD, except for Revelation.
Ah....sorry, NOW I get it.

You are quibbling over the number THREE as opposed to one, or seven.

Got it.

You are right, THREE isn't magical.

FWIW, tonight is wednesday, got home from tonights service started at 7 ended at 8:45. Praise and worship music for 35 minutes the rest was a seminar on evangelism.
[/quote]
yeah tonight is wednesday i got home from daily mass. what's your point?

[Justified Saint]

So that's why Latinos leave the Church -- for services three times a week?

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='mortify' post='1040362' date='Aug 9 2006, 05:53 PM']
Lets just add this to the list of inconsistencies and hypocrisies.
[/quote]

Let's take it easy on being so critical of Protestants (or anyone, for that matter). If we don't speak out of love, we aren't speaking for Christ at all. And when it comes to witnessing to the love of Christ, let's be honest... generally speaking Catholics don't have a tenth of the devotion and love for neighbor that Protesants have.

Last weekend my Baptist roommate commented to me about the people stumbling home from a Catholic parish picnic that took place down the street from our apartment. Does that make me at all proud to be Catholic? Truth is, it beaver dam near pisses me off. There isn't one layperson, sister, brother, or priest in our archdiocese taking a stand against that carp. Of course, the laypeople don't want to stir up a fuss and the priests think we need the beer money to pay the bills... selling out to Satan for a little money. Who does that remind you of???

Now that I'm a little fired up... maybe I should be the one to start saying something.



[quote name='Eutychus' post='1040502' date='Aug 9 2006, 09:16 PM']
Now the best scholarship is moving those dates increasingly closer. Some think the earliest were actually written within 15 years, the last before 70 AD, except for Revelation.

...

You are quibbling over the number THREE as opposed to one, or seven.
[/quote]

FWIW, I was tired of the silly "three services a week" argument as soon as it started.

As for exactly when the first Scriptures appeared, even if it was as early as 15 years after the Ascension, it still doesn't change my question. Did all the martyrs during the time between the Ascension and the publication of the first Scriptures die for the Church or for the book?

[mortify]

[quote name='Eutychus' post='1040502' date='Aug 9 2006, 07:16 PM']
You are right, THREE isn't magical.
[/quote]

Not biblical you mean.

I don't see a problem with going to church three times a week, even though its not *explicitly* stated in the bible. The point is, just because something isn't explicitly stated in the bible doesn't mean it's contrary to the bible.

And even so called "bible churches" have certain unbiblical elements. So pointing out things in Catholicism that are not explicitly stated in the bible is frankly, hypocritical.


And to LouisFan, God bless you, but I don't think I'm out of line. Acting in Love does not mean you can't be firm. But if I have offended anyone, I apologize.

[avemaria40]

[quote name='Eutychus' post='1040259' date='Aug 9 2006, 01:52 PM']
Acts 2. You really ought to try reading the bible every now and then, amazing what you might learn....


My dear....did you not know, that Wycliffe, Tyndale, Huss, Luther et al were ROMAN CATHOLIC priests or professors when they tried to get the bible to the laity?

The Catholics died for a church. The Christians died for the book.

Can't you differentiate the two? If not, you should.
[/quote]


In fact, I did know that, I have studied the Reformation. But the fact remains that Luther changed the Bible and let himself get carried away with his own theological convictions. He added the word "alone" after faith so that he could justify faith alone. He also wanted to take out the book of James and Revelation. Wisdom, Baruch, Judith, Tobit, Sirach, 1 and 2 Maccabees, and the longer versions of Daniel and Esther were all removed. The people were not educated and they could fall for virtually anything. The Church was trying to protect them (albeit in a very misguided way) Also, yes, there was corruption among the leaders ,the LEADERS (as opposed to the PEOPLE), but guess what? There was corruption everywhere! And it wasn't just Catholic countries either, look at King Henry VIII after splitting from the Church. Look at the martyrs who died under Queen Elizabeth I's reign. People died on both sides! What about the fact that in our own United States, Maryland, a Catholic colony, was the one who came up with the Tolerance Acts, while you could get kicked out of a community for not being a Puritan if you lived in Massachussetts? Catholics historically have died for BOTH Bible and Church, not one without the other. I studied this BEFORE choosing Catholicism. If I had any doubt in my mind about the true Christianity of the Catholic Faith, I never would have chosen it.

[quote name='Eutychus' date='Aug 9 2006, 08:49 PM' post='1040456'

And mysteriously that turned into a defense of the daily mass { which 1% or less might attend }
[/quote]


Just because only a few attend it doesn't make it less true. That's like saying not believing in God makes Him not exist.

[Eutychus]

[quote]But the fact remains that Luther changed the Bible and let himself get carried away with his own theological convictions. [b]He added the word "alone" after faith so that he could justify faith alone.[/b] [/quote]

Oh my, HORRORS....the shame, the sin, the corruptions....

OK, that is it! Burn him at the stake over that ONE word he implied was there.

And burn every bible in the vernacular too while you are at it!

And those AWFUL HERETICS even formed BIBLE SOCIETIES that published the bible and encouraged ... shudder....eeek....LAY STUDY of the scriptures! Burn them too!

[quote][color="#990000"][b]QUI PLURIBUS

ON FAITH AND RELIGION

ENCYCLICAL OF POPE PIUS IX

14. This is the goal too of the [u]crafty Bible Societies which renew the old skill of the heretics and ceaselessly force on people of all kinds, even the uneducated, gifts of the Bible. They issue these in large numbers and at great cost, in vernacular translations, which infringe the holy rules of the Church.[/u] The commentaries which are included often contain perverse explanations; so, having rejected divine tradition, the doctrine of the Fathers and the authority of the Catholic Church, they all interpret the words of the Lord by their own private judgment, thereby perverting their meaning. As a result, they fall into the greatest errors. Gregory XVI of happy memory, Our superior predecessor, followed the lead of his own predecessors in rejecting these societies in his apostolic letters.[16] It is Our will to condemn them likewise.[/b][/color][/quote]

[url="http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Pius09/p9quiplu.htm"]http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Pius09/p9quiplu.htm[/url]

Notice that this was only a hundred years ago, not the middle ages.

Those "CRAFTY MEN" who dare to print bibles CHEAPLY, and distribute them without the HRCC commentaries....how DARE they, burn them, the bibles, and shut them all down.

Note, that the Catholic Church did NOT have bibles in general circulation, and when I was in Catholic schools in the 50's and 60's there was NEVER EVER, not once, a plain bible ever used, shown, talked about, or promoted. NOT ONCE in all those years did anyone encourage us to read the bible.

AND....

It was only last year, when the USCCB canned and shelved a program to encourage bible study, they claimed they didn't have enough money, but they had enouigh money for EVERY OTHER cocamaimie program they had on the agenda.

[quote][b]Bishops, in attempt to cut expenses, do not encourage people to read the Bible"
That's the headline feared by Roman Catholic Bishop Joseph M. Sullivan of Brooklyn, New York, after the Conference of Catholic Bishops voted 137-102 to table plans for a statement urging Catholics to read their Bibles. Actually, the story may be worse than that.

The Boston Globe explains that the pastoral statement was "shelved" to "restrain spending and cut down on a crush of publications [the bishops] fear have little impact."[/b]

The Washington Times likewise summarizes bishops complaints that they are "burdened with multiple documents and expensive projects and … agreed Monday to reduce their workload."

Catholic News Service says the finance reason doesn't quite make sense on its own: "Task force chairman Bishop William B. Friend of Shreveport, Louisiana, noted in introducing the proposal that funding would be sought from outside sources to pay the costs of developing the pastoral statement. Sales of the publication would be expected to cover the costs of printing it."

Instead the cost factor is secondary. The bishops on Monday adopted new rules for considering such projects, and it's the financial and managerial cost of new projects in general that the bishops were concerned about.

But there may be more at work than that. Certainly, some bishops were concerned about both the program and the signal that tabling it might mean. Bishop John W. Yanta, of Amarillo, Texas, said, "Coming from a mission diocese, and also from the Bible Belt, I think it would be disastrous for us to vote against this, and I think it would be detrimental. The Word of God is essential to evangelization."

Archbishop Oscar H. Lipscomb of Mobile, Alabama, echoed the fear. "From my position, where the Bible is so much a part of any effort at evangelization, this would be a disaster public-relationswise."

Cincinnati Archbishop Daniel E. Pilarczyk retorted that the conference of bishops doesn't exist "for good public relations, but to do the work of the church."

But encouraging the reading of the Bible is the work of the church, said his colleagues. It's also they said, key to ecumenical efforts with evangelicals.

Ah, those evangelicals. Here's where some trouble may lie. The Washington Times reports:
[color="#000066"]
[b] Milwaukee Auxiliary Bishop Richard J. Sklba, who favored the proposal, worried that [u]Catholics were getting too "individualistic" in their Bible studies.[/u]

"I worry a bit about an increasingly evangelical slant"[/b] [/color]among Catholics, he said.[/quote]

[url="http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2004/146/31.0.html"]http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2004/146/31.0.html[/url]

[curtins]

[quote name='Eutychus' post='1039933' date='Aug 8 2006, 08:22 PM']
Poppycock.

Horsefeathers.

Nonsense.

Just plain ignorant, and untrue.

[u]Do you have ANY IDEA WHATSOEVER that these people are gravitating to?[/u] Most on fire pentecostal church members, go to church on Sunday morning for two hours, Sunday night for one hour, Wednesday night for two hours, and a three hour bible study during the week sometime.

Pentecostals give on average, $4,000 per annum per family. Roman cheapskates last year according to the USCCB donated a whopping $600 per family. The Catholics are RICHER on average than most Pentecostals, yet the level of giving is UNDER 1% of gross income, the LOWEST level of giving of ANY church tracked.

It makes me angry how IGNORANT Catholics claim people leave the Catholic Church for "the easy way out" ... NO, the lazybones, sinners, STAY, and pretend they are following the rules, the priests pretend you are good catholics and give KNOWN sinners communion, and even those promoting abortions are lining up and getting the snack that binds, people wear qwerty rainbow sashes into your churches and no one does a darned thing about it. If those same people tried this in an onfire real Pentecostal church, the members wouild pick them up by the scruff of thier necks, and physically toss them out into the streets if any were dumb enough to even TRY it in the first place.

Most of us don't drink, smoke, gamble, or ANY of the so called "soft sins" that your church winks at, and with booze and gambling, actually allowed ON the church premises and used for fun and fundraisers. { sin for fun and profit, sponsored BY the church itself...amazing...}

So, stop with the outright LIES, please, if you want to compare WHY people LEAVE the Catholic Church for Pentecostal churches, I will let OUR SUNDAY VISITOR answer for me....this was written by Ralph Martin and although some years old, is as true today, no, moreso, than the day our Sunday Visitor published it.
And THAT in a nutshell is WHY most leave, they want the real thing, they want MORE they want faith, they want a christian community, they want structure, they want to learn the bible, they want to trust moral preachers and deacons, they want their kids morally taught, they want to have a SAY in how their church is run, they want FINANCIAL TRANSPARENCY, they want to hire the best men for pastors, and be able to remove those that fall short, for whatever reasons.....

And they get NONE of that in most Catholic Church parishes.
[/quote]


A priest once said- you do not join a church because it has the best people, the nicest people, does the best charity work, or for that matter spends half the week in church. You join a church because it is the TRUE church and contains the FULLNESS OF TRUTH. The whole point we're trying to get at here is TRUTH and thats something protestants seem to brush aside in favor of claiming their church is better because its PEOPLE are better. Christianity is not a quest for BETTER PEOPLE. It is a quest for TRUTH. And Jesus Christ IS TRUTH. Protestants seem to have proven their point that the Catholic Church is wrong when its members sin. Catholics are sinners too just as much as any protestant or anyone else. It doesnt matter how much its members sin. What matters is that it teaches complete TRUTH and is the REAL church Christ established. I DONT CARE IF YOU LOCK YOURSELVES IN A CHURCH WITH YOUR BIBLE FOR THE REST OF YOUR LIVES--> THAT DOESNT MAKE YOU THE TRUE CHURCH OF CHRIST.

I agree with Dust that it only strengthens the church when 'weaker' members leave.

[tojo]

I would just like to point out that I left Pentecostalism/Evangelicalism for the Catholic Church. Furthermore, I was a very devout Protestant Christian. I read my Bible and prayed every day. I went to church and taught Sunday School every Sunday. I faithfully attended a weekly Bible study and participated in friendship evangelism ministries on campus. Study into the issues led me to become Catholic, againts my will truthfully. Fortunately, I managed to place God's will above my own.

"On Fire Pentecostals" were frequently mentioned, and the level of their piety extolled. I commend them also. I'd like to say that the piety of "On Fire Catholics' certainly compares. from attending daily mass as often as possible to regulary praying the Rosary and the Liturgy of the Hours and studying Scripture personally and in groups, our "On Fire" members certainly compare favorably with our Protestant counterparts. One area, that imo, we do better on, is on charitable volunteerism. There is, in my lukewarm student parish, a much stronger emphasis on helping the poor, etc, than there ever was in the Pentecostal churches I attended. The only poor we were ever interested in helping were the poor overseas we were trying to convert.

[Justified Saint]

[quote name='tomasio127' post='1040831' date='Aug 10 2006, 06:35 AM']
a much stronger emphasis on helping the poor, etc, than there ever was in the Pentecostal churches I attended. The only poor we were ever interested in helping were the poor overseas we were trying to convert.
[/quote]

No surprise there. Catholic social thought is theoretically and practically light years ahead of most divisions of Protestantism.

[Eutychus]

[quote]A priest once said- [u]you do not join a church because it has the best people, the nicest people, does the best charity work, or for that matter spends half the week in church. You join a church because it is the TRUE church and contains the FULLNESS OF TRUTH.[/u] The whole point we're trying to get at here is TRUTH and thats something protestants seem to brush aside in favor of claiming their church is better because its PEOPLE are better [/quote]

That is sad, very sad.

Could have been written by Mormon's or Jehova's Witnesses.

You join a church on the PAPERWORK, and ignor the REALITY?

Sad, that grieves me terribly that people actually can be that deceived...and at the same time, call THAT the FULLNESS of anything.

[Budge]

I cant stand that phrase "Fullness of truth"

I loathe it, I believe that one was definitely DEVIL INSPIRED.

If truth is anything but full it is a lie.

Can someone have the fullness of pregnancy?

[be partially pregnant]? [NO]

You either have the Holy Spirit or you do NOT.


The phrase fullness of truth, gives out the false notion that truth can be truth even with some lies.

Satan mixes lies with truth, and Rome doesnt want its people to know that.

[avemaria40]

[quote name='Eutychus' post='1040858' date='Aug 10 2006, 10:21 AM']
That is sad, very sad.

Could have been written by Mormon's or Jehova's Witnesses.

You join a church on the PAPERWORK, and ignor the REALITY?

Sad, that grieves me terribly that people actually can be that deceived...and at the same time, call THAT the FULLNESS of anything.


[/quote]


Except I haven't been deceived. I knew fully what I was getting into. And I have joined a church on the reality, not just paperwork. Jesus said by their fruits you shall know them, and I have looked at the Church's integrity to teach what it has always taught (I'm talking sexual morality, dignity of human life, care for the poor,etc.) the many ways you can praise God (spirituality, devotions, Mass, etc.), even the bad parts of history (didn't Jesus warn us there would be bad as well as good?), the fact that the Catholic Church was the only Christian Church for the first 1000 years of Christianity, as well as the fact that many Protestant churches were founded, at most 500 years ago and some of the evangelical ones, 30 years ago. I wanted to join a church that allowed me to praise God in the highest and I found Him in the Catholic Church.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Eutychus' post='1040858' date='Aug 10 2006, 11:21 AM']
That is sad, very sad.

Could have been written by Mormon's or Jehova's Witnesses.

You join a church on the PAPERWORK, and ignor the REALITY?

Sad, that grieves me terribly that people actually can be that deceived...and at the same time, call THAT the FULLNESS of anything.


[/quote]
The internal reality is truth and beauty. All that exists has these two things at the core. We are made to know God and love God. Truth is meant to be known, beauty to be loved. All things flow from this. Social justice, community, moral living...these all flow from truth and beauty. You cannot make it go the other way around. The Catholic Church has the truth and she is beautiful, and that truth and beauty is of Jesus Christ. Other ecclesial communities may have good works, lively services, and morality, but they lack the fullness of truth and beauty. The Catholic Church has truth and beauty, but too few who appreciate it. Therefore, the solution is not to go to another Church, but to turn back to the source of truth and beauty. Thus St. Paul tells the falling Corinthians not to do good works or to change their services to make them more appealing, but to turn back to Jesus Christ. It's all about Jesus. We just need proper catechesis to get people to realize that. The non-Catholic Christians of whome you speak simply do well with what they have, and that's great, but if they had the fullness of truth and beauty, saints would be pouring out from their church doors. If you want proof, just look at St. Peter's Catholic Church in Steubenville, Ohio. About 100 people come for Mass everyday. You have people who live out their faith and they do much holier things than any Protestant who lives out his/her faith. If you could see all the large families, the long lines for Confession, the donut Sunday attendance, the Eucharistic processions, the ministries, and all the other things that go on there, you would think it was one of those non-Catholic communities you describe...right up until you noticed that they had the Eucharist.

[Budge]

[quote]The internal reality is truth and [b]beauty.[/b] All that exists has these two things at the core. We are made to know God and love God. Truth is meant to be known, [b]beauty[/b] to be loved. All things flow from this. Social justice, community, moral living...these all flow from truth and [b]beauty[/b]. You cannot make it go the other way around. The Catholic Church has the truth and [b]she is beautiful, [/b]and that truth and beauty is of Jesus Christ. Other ecclesial communities may have good works, lively services, and morality, but they lack the fullness of truth and beauty. The Catholic Church has truth and [b]beauty[/b], but too few who appreciate it. Therefore, the solution is not to go to another Church, but to turn back to the source of truth and [b]beauty[/b]. ......[/quote]

Rome smells of elderberries many into her net, using the sensual, and earthly beauty.

Sensusal services, using smells, bells, stained glass, magnificant cathedrals...and much more.

[font="Lucida Console"]Pro 31:30 Favour [is] deceitful, and [b]beauty [is] vain:[/b] [but] a woman [that] feareth the LORD, she shall be praised.
[/font]
[font="Lucida Console"]
Psa 39:11 When thou with rebukes dost correct man for iniquity, [b]thou makest his beauty to consume away like a moth: surely every man [is] vanity[/b]. Selah.[/font]