Hindu Masses are really happening...

[Budge]

[img]http://www.cfnews.org/Our%20Father.jpg[/img]

[quote]After the Blessed Trinity Dance and[13] Entrance Procession, the priests were greeted with an arati of lights, after which Father D’Sa performed the same arati towards the people.

He had earlier told them, “We shall also welcome you with an Indian gesture called arati, with flowers and with a lamp”. As a dancer demonstrated how the arati plate is waved in three circles, Father D’Sa explained that the first circle stands for God who created us and the universe, the second circle for the universe, and the third for our fellow human beings. “In this way,” he said, “we are united with God, the universe, and with our fellow human beings in this one gesture called arati”. [size=5]This statement clearly denoted the Hindu nature of the proceedings, as Hindus believe all men are united with the universal Absolute. Hinduism’s other deities are manifestations of the divine One.[/size]

Father D’Sa was disingenuous in describing arati as a mere “welcoming gesture” instead of as the most important ritual in Hindu worship. Arati is defined as a temple ritual in which a fire or light on a plate is waved in a clockwise direction in front of a deity, an important person, or anything valuable. Light is worshiped as the Supreme Lord of inner consciousness. The clockwise direction symbolizes one’s divinity, revealed by the “flame” or light of knowledge. Fire and light themselves are worshiped.[size=5] Indeed, the puja-Mass was advertised in the flyer as “Divya Yagam,” a term meaning “worship of the Light”. Arati is also done to appease the goddess Arathi and to counteract “the evil eye”. Further, the Hindu gods demand adoration with flowers, incense and light. It just so happens that the puja-Mass features a triple arati of fire, flowers and incense sticks later in the proceedings.
[/size]
Father D’Sa was the main celebrant, and the pastor of St. Ann’s the concelebrant. Both priests sported a white dot between the eyebrows. There are several varieties and meanings for this dot, the first being that the wearer proclaims he is a Hindu. The location between the eyebrows is supposed to be a center of spiritual energy and a focus of meditation. The dot in that position represents the “third eye” of divine inner sight — i.e., of occult knowledge and abilities — and awareness of unity with the universe, which Hindus seek to awaken. Focusing on the god within, the dot is a symbol of the worship of the intellect.[14]

Before the washing of the hands, Father D’Sa performed a superstitious ritual, offering blue and red flowers to the “eight directions of the world”. He said the flowers symbolized those present who were from different cultures and traditions, hoping for unity. [size=5]However, in the regular Hindu ritual, flowers are offered to the gods of the eight directions, honoring the eight aspects of the god Shiva.[/size] The ritual is also done to obtain the protection of the god who rules a particular eighth section of the universe. Another reason for this puja is that one doesn’t know from which direction the Absolute Lord will come.[15] A different god, seemingly chosen according to need, is invoked for each direction. Father D’Sa himself chanted eight names as he touched the flowers to his forehead, nose and chest, then carefully arranged them on the altar at the compass points surrounding the host and chalices.

After the Great Amen, the dancing girls performed a triple arati of flowers, fire and incense to the accompaniment of more pagan chants whilst the celebrants held aloft the consecrated Sacred Species. Father D’Sa announced that this blasphemy was “the climactic part of our Eucharistic Prayer”.

At the Kiss of Peace, the congregation was told to fold their hands and do the Indian greeting of namaste to their neighbors. Namaste means [size=5]“the god in me honors the god in you”[/size]. It awakens the third eye of the greeter to worship the god in the greeted.[16]

Another abomination took place at the Our Father. Instead of reciting the prayer together as a congregation, the people were asked to sit down while the girls launched into another interpretive dance number. Most gestures were completely un-fathomable, with the exception of receiving bread and forgiving trespasses (a shove, hurt feelings, forgiveness, hugs all around). The musical accompaniment was a Hare Krishna chant! Father D’Sa intoned the words “Our Father” four times. The response each time was the mantra “Hare Krishna”; towards the end of the prayer, the mantra was repeated over and over. Krishna, the reincarnation of Vishnu, who represents the Absolute Lord, is said to have se-duced 16,000 women, and a whole occult, erotic literature has been developed around this aspect of Krishna.[17] The words “Hare Krishna” mean “O energy of the Lord (Hare), O Lord (Krishna), please engage me in your service!” This energy is actually the goddess Radha, Krishna’s chief consort, who “helps the de-votee achieve the grace of the supreme Father,” Krishna, who reveals himself to the sincere devotee. The mantra “Hare Krish-na” is thus supposed to awaken spiritual consciousness.[18]

Replacing the Final Blessing, the Dance of the Last Supper was performed to illustrate the “social dimension” that should result from celebrating the Eucharist. The portrayal of “what we must do when we go out into the world” included the washing of the feet and another depiction of forgiveness.[/quote]


[img]http://www.deceptioninthechurch.com/shiva.jpg[/img]

[img]http://www.cfnews.org/TereBeati.jpg[/img]

we don't link to anti-catholic sites-cmom

Edited August 18, 2006 by cmotherofpirl

[stbernardLT]

Wait a minute. You consider us pretty much anything but Christian, yet you read the bible we created. I guess you should also have a picture up there of you with a bible. Everyone one of the pictures you post are taking out of context, but again that is how your church's evangelizes, by manipulation of the truth. It is time you realize you are not talking to the catholics that are ignorant of truth and go to your church to hear a waterdowned gospel message. We are all deeply in love with the church Christ left for us and your just spinning your wheels.

P.S. If you are just looking for prayers, we are all praying for you.

[avemaria40]

Pope John Paul 2 was being greeted by a Catholic Indian woman, not blessed by a Hindu woman. And Mother Teresa's beatification was done under the Catholic rite, those women are probably just paying their respect to a woman who helped their country. BTW, liturgical dance is allowed where the culture uses dance to praise God.

If people are disobeying the Church through idolatry, (if they really were invoking the name of the Hindu gods), then that is a sin, and these people are disobedient. But if they were actually using their own language and customs to praise God, there is nothing wrong with that! Not everyone adheres to Western custom and culture

[Budge]

[quote]Wait a minute. You consider us pretty much anything but Christian, yet you read the bible we created. I guess you should also have a picture up there of you with a bible. Everyone one of the pictures you post are taking out of context, but again that is how your church's evangelizes, by manipulation of the truth. It is time you realize you are not talking to the catholics that are ignorant of truth and go to your church to hear a waterdowned gospel message. We are all deeply in love with the church Christ left for us and your just spinning your wheels.[/quote]

The Catholic church did not write the Bible.

The pictures are NOT taken out of context. instead of dealing with whats in them, and saying "Wow that is wrong", you are making excuses and denying right what is in front of your face.

You are more in love with your church far mroe then with Christ, because if you loved Jesus Christ, you would be horrified to see people praying to Shiva in your churches.

[quote]

If people are disobeying the Church through idolatry, (if they really were invoking the name of the Hindu gods), then that is a sin, and these people are disobedient. But if they were actually using their own language and customs to praise God, there is nothing wrong with that! Not everyone adheres to Western custom and culture[/quote]

Read the articles, Hindu gods in the Mass were called upon.


--------------------

[Resurrexi]

I agree that what happened at that Mass was horrible. It was completely contrary to the teachings of the Church. It went against the rubrics and therefore, the priest and those who participated, if they knew they were not following the rubrics, comitted a grave mortal sin of sacrilige and disobedience.

[avemaria40]

Can you stop bearing false witness against Catholics and saying we don't love Jesus, which is a bald faced lie? I'll admit, I don't know much about the Hindu gods article (I couldn't tell if it was just their language or the actual gods they were praying to) but if they are invoking Hindu gods, then it is an absolute sin. I just said that! I know my faith lies in Jesus Christ and nothing you say is going to decide whether I go to hell or not.

[stbernardLT]

It is silly to even try to reason with you. You think a couple of priest and some unfortunate events represent the actual teachings of the church. People still have freewill and can actually do wrong all by hemselves, believe or not. Otherwise I guess it would be safe to say that everyone in your church uses really big font, BUT i REALLY DON'T THINK THAT IS THE CASE, OOPS. I'M CONVERTED. Why don't you read the rubrics of the mass then come back and say what you think is wrong. Maybe then we could have logical discussions in stead of you using speculation and some photos of liturgical abuses to support your uninformed opinions.

[Dave]

The article didn't even get the name of the greeting (and that's all it is) right -- it's "aarti," not "arati!"

[Budge]

I see it spelled different ways all over the place...

[Seven77]

lol...Budge my friend, that is from a Catholic site (albeit quasi-schismatic)! youve been had!

[Resurrexi]

[quote]Can you stop bearing false witness against Catholics and saying we don't love Jesus, which is a bald faced lie?[/quote]

I HAVE NEVER SAID WE DON'T LOVE JESUS!

[quote]I'll admit, I don't know much about the Hindu gods article (I couldn't tell if it was just their language or the actual gods they were praying to) but if they are invoking Hindu gods, then it is an absolute sin.[/quote]

I agree.

[quote]I just said that! I know my faith lies in Jesus Christ and nothing you say is going to decide whether I go to hell or not.[/quote]

I wasn't accusing you of a mortal sin, I was accusing the priest and those who participated if they knew they were not following the rubrics.

[quote]Why don't you read the rubrics of the mass then come back and say what you think is wrong.[/quote]

I may not have read the GIRM, but I know that liturgical dancing is not mentioned as something that should happen, so it should not be done.

[quote]Maybe then we could have logical discussions in stead of you using speculation and some photos of liturgical abuses to support your uninformed opinions.[/quote]

My opinions are not uninformed. I've done a great deal of studying on liturgical abuse and how the liturgy should be said, thank you.

[stbernardLT]

[quote name='StThomasMore' post='1045558' date='Aug 17 2006, 03:39 PM']
I HAVE NEVER SAID WE DON'T LOVE JESUS!
I agree.
I wasn't accusing you of a mortal sin, I was accusing the priest and those who participated if they knew they were not following the rubrics.
I may not have read the GIRM, but I know that liturgical dancing is not mentioned as something that should happen, so it should not be done.

My opinions are not uninformed. I've done a great deal of studying on liturgical abuse and how the liturgy should be said, thank you.
[/quote]

I was referring to the protestant, not you.

[Budge]

When one supports a religious system that now makes it a HABIT to break the FIRST COMMANDMENT, that is not showing love of Christ.

[stbernardLT]

Please tell me how come we have between 25 and 30 thousand protestant denominations, all with different interprtations of the bible. I think the reason for this is because those churches or pators have a little something called pride and they can't submit to anyone else or agree with anyone elses teachings. They have found some infinite knowledge that remained untapped for the 15-1900 years before their own revelation. These people are guilty of making themselves a false God, because they are to full of pride and unable to accept the teachings of the church. It will never end, we will end up with 100,000 different interpretations and churches who still consider to have the truth. There can only be one absolute truth. Others can possess pieces of truth, but there can only be one absolute, true interpretation of scripture into doctrine. I'm going with consistency, Catholicism. What are you going with: Jehovah Witness, Mormons, Baptist, Southern Baptist, Pentacostal, Apostolic, Methodist, Lutheran, Episcopal, Seventh Day Adventist, Vineyard, Church of Christ, Word of Faith, Assembly of God, Purpose Driven, Agape, Christ Gospel, Christ the King, Church of the Convenant, Cornerstone Ministries, Presbyterian, Anglican, Progressive Baptist, Glory Temple, Temple of Praise Fellowship, Unitarian Universalist, Word of Life, Victory Tabernacle, and so on, and so on, and so on. So which one is yours or maybe you just decided to make up your own.

I almost forgot that the churches weren't important, it is the people. Because it doesn't matter what they are being taught, just what each individual thinks is the truth. I can't remember Jesus saying"well Peter it is up to you to figure out what I mean by this parable, what ever you decide is fine"

The Holy Spirit works through consistency and universality among its believers, which I am sorry to say your "churches" do not have.


100% Catholic, 100% Truth.

[Eutychus]

[quote] Wait a minute. You consider us pretty much anything but Christian, yet you read the bible we created. I guess you should also have a picture up there of you with a bible. Everyone one of the pictures you post are taking out of context, but again that is how your church's evangelizes, by manipulation of the truth.[/quote]

Blah, blah .... blah...blah....& BLAH....

Everything and anything BUT dealing with the apostacies at hand. How about a simple statement like this...?
[color="#000099"][i]
[b]"Wow, I never knew that about the priests over there, they are WRONG, and the Pope ought to do something like excommunicate them for this."[/b][/i]
[/color]
See how easy it is to actually STAND for something, instead of being wishy washy neo modernists that run to and fro defending anything and everything, so long as it answers to "father" and wears a silken dress?

[b]Come on folks!

[u]Buck it UP HERE, stand tall, be REAL men and women of God![/u]

Call it for what it is, blatant apostacy of the worst sort.

Do I hear an AMEN here anywhere??[/b]

[img]http://www.nationalcatholicreporter.org/globalpers/dance2.jpg[/img]

[url="http://www.nationalcatholicreporter.org/globalpers/gp032905.htm"]NOT THE FIRST CATHOLIC TO DO THESE THINGS, SAY HELLO TO THE DANCING JESUITS[/url]

Edited August 17, 2006 by Eutychus

[stbernardLT]

I just realized that you got some of this from the Catholic Family News. Its funny because those people would probably be harsher than us towards you. I guess it doesn't matter if it is far right or far left as long as it is heretical and schismatic it is good to go.

[Aloysius]

note that the aversion to the topic you saw in posts above is the exact same tactic being used by Eutychus and Budge in other threads. avert the topic and give an emotional appeal.

centuries ago the Catholic Church nearly converted the entire Chinese Empire. The Jesuits got into the chinese texts, delved into chinese culture, and came to understand it inside and out. They determined that what could seemingly be translated in the west as "ancestor worship" was, in fact, no worship at all. The Pope didn't listen to them, instead he forbid the practice. This would be akin to forbidding the irish from having wakes. The Emporer therefore did not convert, the population therefore did not convert, and everyone came back a loser because the Pope back then acted like Budge and Eutychus are acting right now, and it's not with the Spirit of Christ but rather with the Spirit of Pride and ethnocentrism.

I suspect this likely is the same situation (I could be wrong, we should each study respectable books on the subject and come back when we are actually prepared for a discussion, internet articals are not so reliable, I am going to delve through all my texts on hinduism tonight and hit up a couple hindu sources online to double check this artical's "translation" of the sign of peace here) with the sign of peace. More likely than not this is the equivalent of saying "my spirit honors your spirit" even if the same words are used in the hindu language in other contexts.

We do not abolish cultures: we crown them with Christ. There is no need to abolish asian culture and replace it with european culture, or american culture, or even with first century jewish culture. Convert them to christ. [b]Praise the unknown gods as foreshadowing Christ and condemn the particularities which obscure their vision from Him.[/b]

If any of these are actually being used in devotion to the hindu religion, that is appalling and should be stopped. But I will not take one measly internet artical with a few pictures that float around conspiracy circles because they can appear to have a bad light.

So what needs to be sorted out in this issue:

The meaning of "Namaste", and whether it is the proper liturgical translation for "Pax Christi" "Et cum Spiritu Tuo"

Whether this namaste that supposedly uses the word "god" uses, in fact, the same word god that would be used to describe the One True God.

Whether this statement: “we are united with God, the universe, and with our fellow human beings in this one gesture called arati” does or does not in the context of the language mean one with or, in the more Chrisitan and correct sense, [i]united[/i] with (because if it is united, then it is a correct statement, if it attempts to blur the individuality of persons and the hierarchy of creation, then it is incorrect)

In the developement of Christian worship, there was a question of using the word "Kyrie" in Greek to refer to the Lord Jesus since the same word also refered to 'lords' among other gods. The issue was settled, and to this day there is an entire section of the mass which first uses the word "Kyrie" then clarifies it as "Christe" and then reminds us that this 'Christe' is the Kyrie with a final Kyrie.

What would you have the indians do if their word for "lord" is "krishna"? Shall they not be afforded the priveledge of calling our Blessed Savior "lord" in their native tongue? Or would you have them assume the english word "lord" because it is the official language of the Holy Protestant Invisible Union of Churches?

[thessalonian]

Guess how New Gunea was converted? By the Eucharist. You see they were canabals. They easily understood the Eucharist. Of course they had to give up their canabalism. St. Francis Xavier was one of the greatest evangelists ever. He quickly learned the language of the people and then the culture. Then he used his knowledge to convert them to Christ. This is the method of Acts 17. Redeeming cultures.

Blessings

[DAF]

Eutychus, if you want to make the Church look bad, I would reccommend you use a religious order with a little more credability than the Jesuits.
Also, all these articles you're posting are the exceptions, certainly not the rule. And most of them aren't even exceptions, they just as wrong to us as they are to you.
[quote]so long as it answers to "father" and wears a silken dress?[/quote]
You're blinded by your prejudice.

[chris]

I got a few questions for Budge and for all these other people here harping at the church.


Why do you care? You arent Catholic...So whats up with you?

Why doesnt all this stuff matter to you?

What are you wanting to find in us?

What are you really accusing us of?

Why are you accusing?

Christians are supposed to be Christ like, is trying to take old new to us and make it look like we are dumb geniuses what Christ would do?

You arent ministering your trying to support a conspiracy theory of a
2000 year old Church. Claiming that we are craker worshiping mislead sons of the whore of babylon. But remeber your church came from ours. Your leaders came from our church. So if were are mislead sinners then what are you?

Honestly, what the heck are you trying to find here?

If not what then who are you trying to find?

and last but not least
------------------------------

What in world is your major malfunction?

Edited August 17, 2006 by Convert4888