Hindu Masses are really happening...

[thessalonian]

Convert4888,

Isn't it obvious they are protestants even though they deny they are :.

[chris]

None the less I would like these questions answered. If they can't answer them then there is absolute no reason for them to be here unless they are here peacfully. But, since budge has been here half the time there is no peace, we are always defending ourselves from rude, ridiculous confrontations thats are not even close to being true.

I would hate to be the Church that they are representing because, they aren't doing so hot.

So, whats your answer gentlemen?

Edited August 18, 2006 by Convert4888

[Budge]

[quote]Whether this statement: “we are united with God, the universe, and with our fellow human beings in this one gesture called arati”[u] [i]does or does not in the context of the language mean one with or, in the more Chrisitan and correct sense[/i][/u], [b]united with (because if it is united, then it is a correct statement, if it attempts to blur the individuality of persons and the hierarchy of creation, then it is incorrect[/b])[/quote]
[font="Arial Black"]

[img]http://www.byers.com/spatialage/newsandevents/newsletter/Feb03/man_head_spinning.gif[/img]



My head is spinning, WHAT DOES THIS EVEN MEAN?[/font][size=5]




[quote]
Come on folks!

Buck it UP HERE, stand tall, be REAL men and women of God!

Call it for what it is, blatant apostacy of the worst sort.

idontknow.gif Do I hear an AMEN here anywhere?? idontknow.gif
[/quote]

That would be too simple.

They have to write convoluted paragraphs to excuse the sin of breaking the first commandment.

Very sad. So many here dont even have the basics down of what it means to be a Christian.

[chris]

budge your a hot talker...I'm impressed. But, you cant even answer a few questions? Instead of accusing us of "writing convoluted paragraphs to excuse the sin of breaking the first commandment."

Your quite rude for a person who thinks he/she knows "what it means to be a Christian."

Remeber those are all your quotes.

Oh, and by the way who on Heaven and Earth gave your the power to accuse us of other god worhsip or whether or not we know what a Christian is. You dont have any power on earth or in heaven to even come close to making that judgement.

Edited August 18, 2006 by Convert4888

[Budge]

[quote]
Oh, and by the way who on Heaven and Earth gave your the power to accuse us of other god worhsip or whether or not we know what a Christian is. You dont have any power on earth or in heaven to even come close to making that judgement.[/quote]

So you think its ok they did worship to Shiva during this Mass?

Im not standing on my power, Im standing on Gods Word which says...
[size=5][font="Franklin Gothic Medium"]
Exd 20:3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.[/font][/size]

[chris]

you can prove without a shadow a doubt that the article you posted says that they utilized the worship of hindu gods during the mass?
and you were there at the mass so you can certifiably state that everything there besides cultural dance was breaking the 2nd Commandment?

you have never really answered none of my questions. You have just made nothing but, excuses.

[DAF]

Really though, what are your motives? Assuming you got us out of the Church, where would we go from there? To make up a religion with our trusty Bibles? Seems like that route's kind of tired, isn't there anything else we can do?

[Socrates]

So every time some "Catholic" somewhere in the world does something blatantly contrary and opposed to Catholic teaching, this is supposed to mean the Catholic Church is wrong, and we should all go out and join Budge and Eutychus' congregation?

I suppose everytime a "Fundamentalist" or "Evangelical" Christian does something wacky (I mean other than Budge and Eut's postings, of course), we should post it to discredit their religion! (Westboro Baptists, anyone?)

Edited August 18, 2006 by Socrates

[Eutychus]

[quote] centuries ago the Catholic Church nearly converted the entire Chinese Empire. The Jesuits got into the chinese texts, delved into chinese culture, and came to understand it inside and out. They determined that what could seemingly be translated in the west as "ancestor worship" was, in fact, no worship at all. The Pope didn't listen to them, instead he forbid the practice. This would be akin to forbidding the irish from having wakes. The Emporer therefore did not convert, the population therefore did not convert, and everyone came back a loser because the Pope back then acted like Budge and Eutychus are acting right now, and it's not with the Spirit of Christ but rather with the Spirit of Pride and ethnocentrism.[/quote]

Horsehockey.

Right now, today, this afternoon, there are 100,000,000 evangelical/pentecostal chinese REAL CHRISTIANS.

They do NOT have ancestor worship, in fact, the Korean's are sending MISSIONARIES to Europe, the bastion of Roman Catholicism, to teach the humanist/pagan/european/lapsed Catholics CHRISTIANITY. They are sending out MORE missionaries than the rest of the world combined, into Africa, Asia, and Muslim nations. They are DOING what the rest of us talk about.

Sheesh. The nonsense you people believe staggers the imagination. Honestly.

Christ and Christianity is the same NOW, as THEN, and FOREVER. Any cultural adaptations tend to DILUTE the faith, not enhance it. Including OURS here in the USA I might add.

[url="http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2006/003/16.28.html"]http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2006/003/16.28.html[/url]

[quote]Really though, what are your motives? [u]Assuming you got us out of the Church, where would we go from there? [/u] [/quote]

That SAME QUESTION is the one that every Roman Catholic becoming merely "Christian" has to answer.

Lets see here...

40% of all the people in Guatamala are EX Roman Catholics.....

30% of all the people in Brazil are EX Roman Catholics....

22% of all the people in Chile are EX Roman Catholics...

Here in the USA, 20% of all hispanics are now EX Roman Catholics...

Hmmm, is there a pattern here? AHA! Apparently there ARE places that EX Roman Catholics go, are happy with, and find perfectly acceptable replacements, no, an improvement.

Imagine that!

So, the question isn't one YOU are alone in asking, each one of us had to cross that Tiber and swim to a safer shore with fewer sharks.

Edited August 18, 2006 by Eutychus

[Aloysius]

Aha.... so there should be no culture whatsoever... just christianity? absurd.

what those who never bothered to understand the practices and beliefs of the people there call "ancestor worship" is really ceremonies of remembrance. it would be just like telling the irish not to have wakes. do you think irish wakes "dilute" christianity?

again your numbers prove nothing. there are plenty of people going from each side to the other side. AND you basically make the assumption that all these ex-Catholics are entering your definition of "vibrant christian churches". they are not. a lot of these ex-catholics are ex-catholics because they don't like that the Church condemns marxism and liberation theology so they find a "christian" church in which they are free to reduce Christ's entire message down to class warfare. quality, not quantity, is key.

If it's a numbers game: we're still beating you in worldwide adherents and churches. If it's a numbers game: we're still beating you in age. If it's a numbers game: you're entire protestant revolution stole exactly as many Catholics in the sixteenth century as were gained in Latin America in the same century. If it's a numbers game: we were evangelizing before there ever even existed one church with doctrines remotely similar to the modern individualism preached by your brand of christianity.

but it's not a numbers game. attack us on beliefs. show why what you believe about the bible is the right thing to believe about the bible and why our way is wrong... not with numbers and emotional appeals but with LOGIC. You could spread non-denomination vibrant "christian" communities all around the world; but if what these communities believed was not what Christ wanted them to believe it would be for nothing.

Christ came as the Incarnate God. To personalize God. To reveal God. To make Him intimately known to all who desired to know Him with a certitude of faith and reason. He did not come to keep what was absolutely true about Him a mystery. He came to reveal alot.

Again: I ask you: what would you have the indians translate the word "lord" into other than "krishna"? Why cannot they use a greeting that, in their culture, connotates "my spirit honors your spirit"? Why should they not be allowed to place eight symbolic flowers in a vase?

Destroying cultures is not what Christianity is meant to do. It's not what St. Paul did. It's not what any of the Apostles did. It is, in fact, something evil, racist, ethnocentric, and sinful.

Condemn and destroy everything that blocks the people's understanding of Christ. Built up, crown, exalt, and glorify by Christ everything in a culture that is good about it.

And again, if anything was going on in which they were worshiping shiva (the priest made it clear he did not intend to honor shiva at all) that is to be condemned and rooted out. But if they were bringing their culture to Jesus then that is something beautiful and it is dispicable that anyone would attack it in ethnocentric fear disguised as concern against idolatry.

by the way, to clear up my "convoluted paragraph"

there is a Christian idea of union with God, union with the universe, union within the Body of Christ and within the entire human family.

the eastern idea is more of a "oneness" in which everything is just a manifestation of the one ultimate reality.

So it is very important that the word "unity" be used rather than "oneness"... I would assume, however I am not an expert in their language, culture, or religion and as such am not in a position to make that absolute statement... that's why I said we should both do some honest scholarly studying. The important thing would be that they understand that it is a communion in which unique individual human beings are united with, but not the same as, all of creation and God Himself.

and yes, it is not simple: you're talking about cultural clash... you cannot expect to understand what a culture means by any of its statemetns by reading an artical tirading against their idolatries. you have to get deep into the language, the connotations, understand the gheist of the culture.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Budge' post='1045485' date='Aug 17 2006, 03:04 PM']
The Catholic church did not write the Bible.

The pictures are NOT taken out of context. instead of dealing with whats in them, and saying "Wow that is wrong", you are making excuses and denying right what is in front of your face.

You are more in love with your church far mroe then with Christ, because if you loved Jesus Christ, you would be horrified to see people praying to Shiva in your churches.
Read the articles, Hindu gods in the Mass were called upon.
--------------------
[/quote]

It was written by members of the Church, texts selected by the church and preserved by the Church. We did far more than just write it :
I wasn't at the Mass in Toronto so I can't speak to that. I did watch the Mass for Mother Theresa, and I have seen tapes of the Pope being greeted by delegations in various countries. You see scandal where it doesn't exist. The Church being universal adapts to other cultures and manners and always has. That is why there are 22 different rites in the Church. Catholic means here comes everybody, because all are called to Christ in HIS Church.

[quote name='Budge' post='1045566' date='Aug 17 2006, 04:47 PM']
When one supports a religious system that now makes it a HABIT to break the FIRST COMMANDMENT, that is not showing love of Christ.
[/quote]

Catholics haven't broken it, but I do know many people who worship a book instead of God.

[avemaria40]

[quote name='StThomasMore' post='1045558' date='Aug 17 2006, 04:39 PM']
I HAVE NEVER SAID WE DON'T LOVE JESUS!
[/quote]
I was talking to Budge! i'm sry, i didn't see ur post I know u love Jesus
sry, double post

Edited August 18, 2006 by avemaria40

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Budge' post='1045680' date='Aug 17 2006, 07:18 PM']
So you think its ok they did worship to Shiva during this Mass?

Im not standing on my power, Im standing on Gods Word which says...
[size=5][font="Franklin Gothic Medium"]
Exd 20:3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.[/font][/size]
[/quote]
Well da, if shiva or anybody elseother than God Almighty was "worshipped" it would be wrong, but of course their actions of one several or even many idiots doesn't make the Church wrong.


We could probably come up with more pictures and websites than you can even dream of
You can post aberrations until you are blue in the face, but that doesn't and never will have anything to do with the actual teachings of the Catholic Church.
So other than re-hashing old news [ to us at least] what is your point?

[Eutychus]

[quote]what those who never bothered to understand the practices and beliefs of the people there call "ancestor worship" is really ceremonies of remembrance. it would be just like telling the irish not to have wakes. do you think irish wakes "dilute" christianity? [/quote]

Being partly Irish, and having gone to Roman Catholic Irish WAKES for my entire life....

I call them SPRING BREAK FOR ADULTS.

Booze fests, drunken slobbering morose events.

And that is firsthand knowledge.

There is NOTHING CHRISTIAN about Irish Wakes, they are Baccanalian orgies of Irish Wiskey and tears.

[Budge]

[quote]So every time some "Catholic" somewhere in the world does something blatantly contrary and opposed to Catholic teaching, this is supposed to mean the Catholic Church is wrong, and we should all go out and join Budge and Eutychus' congregation? idontknow.gif wacko.gif[/quote]

Im not talking about some RARE individuals.

This universalism is rife throughout your church as an institution, from the Popes on down teaching the universalism via the falsehood called "interreligious dialogue"

And really the paperwork defense isnt going to work...Benny Hinn can claim he is a Christian on paper, but doesnt mean what he says and does is Biblical, that includes your Popes and Cardinals.

[quote]
I suppose everytime a "Fundamentalist" or "Evangelical" Christian does something wacky (I mean other than Budge and Eut's postings, of course), we should post it to discredit their religion! (Westboro Baptists, anyone?)[/quote]

At least when evangelical and fundamentalist preachers go off the rails, I can call them out, I can address the errors of Joel Osteen to Benny Hinn, I dont defend them like Catholics defend every mishap in their church because they have to play cover-guard for the men in silk.

Go ahead and post about the fundamentalists and evangelicals gone off the rails. That is fine. Christians are supposed to expose error not excuse it. Westboro is a false church.

[quote]If it's a numbers game: we're still beating you in worldwide adherents and churches. If it's a numbers game: we're still beating you in age. If it's a numbers game: you're entire protestant revolution stole exactly as many Catholics in the sixteenth century as were gained in Latin America in the same century. If it's a numbers game: we were evangelizing before there ever even existed one church with doctrines remotely similar to the modern individualism preached by your brand of christianity.[/quote]

Ah the numbers game....
[b]
Mat 7:14 Because strait [is] the gate, and narrow [is] the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.[/b]

It looks others here have totally embraced the gospel of MULTICULTURALISM above that of the Christian gospel.

[Aloysius]

I have first hand experience as well, i'm completely irish... except I don't have puritan sensibilities and I believe that they are a great tradition.

nothing wrong with Irish wiskey. nothing wrong with a few tears. nothing wrong with a few laughs.

puritanism is an evil plague upon christianity. you can drink, even on special occassions quite a bit. Our Lord Himself did as much; at the wedding at Cana they ran out of wine they were drinking so much so He produced some of the best wine they had ever tasted... and of course in those days "better wine" was wine with more alcohol content as that kept all the bacteria out (less alcohol, more likely you'd get sick from it)

[quote name='Budge' post='1045757' date='Aug 17 2006, 09:37 PM']

Ah the numbers game....
[b]
Mat 7:14 Because strait [is] the gate, and narrow [is] the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.[/b]

It looks others here have totally embraced the gospel of MULTICULTURALISM above that of the Christian gospel.
[/quote]
notice my very next paragraph: my whole point is that it is not a number's game. it's eut who's playing that game. you could be the largest or the smallest religion in the world and it wouldn't matter a lick, all that matters is whether you believe what Jesus came to reveal. that's why I keep insisting against the superfluous citing of conversion statistics (in countries rife with anti-catholic marxism no less) hoping we can discuss only the difference between doctrines: which is logically right which is logically wrong, which is more biblical, which is what Christ wants us to believe and do?

[Socrates]

[quote name='Budge' post='1045757' date='Aug 17 2006, 07:37 PM']
And really the paperwork defense isnt going to work...Benny Hinn can claim he is a Christian on paper, but doesnt mean what he says and does is Biblical, that includes your Popes and Cardinals.
At least when evangelical and fundamentalist preachers go off the rails, I can call them out, I can address the errors of Joel Osteen to Benny Hinn, I dont defend them like Catholics defend every mishap in their church because they have to play cover-guard for the men in silk.
[/quote]
We don't defend every abuse by any priest or Catholic. If you go back and research this site, you'll find plenty of criticism fo abuses comitted by various "Catholics" who act contrary to the teachings and disciplines of the Church.

[ruso]

[quote name='Eutychus' post='1045718' date='Aug 18 2006, 02:25 AM']



That SAME QUESTION is the one that every Roman Catholic becoming merely "Christian" has to answer.

Lets see here...

40% of all the people in Guatamala are EX Roman Catholics.....

30% of all the people in Brazil are EX Roman Catholics....

22% of all the people in Chile are EX Roman Catholics...

Here in the USA, 20% of all hispanics are now EX Roman Catholics...

Hmmm, is there a pattern here? AHA! Apparently there ARE places that EX Roman Catholics go, are happy with, and find perfectly acceptable replacements, no, an improvement.

Imagine that!

So, the question isn't one YOU are alone in asking, each one of us had to cross that Tiber and swim to a safer shore with fewer sharks.
[/quote]
These data are certain, something less in Brazil and something more in Chile, for my sources. Not this badly for a catholic to do autocritice.
But to call Christians to many of these protestant groups that are in Latinamerican it indicates that do not you know the truth.
We are speaking of you authenticate sects, that in the best of the alone cases they seek money, shows (at times televised), with healings in direct, petitions of money as the television-preachers of USA and messages of hatred to it Catholic.
Not all the Protestants are sectarian, but in Latinamerica many of them, playing with the faith of the simple people and swindling them.

[ruso]

[quote name='Eutychus' post='1045718' date='Aug 18 2006, 02:25 AM']



That SAME QUESTION is the one that every Roman Catholic becoming merely "Christian" has to answer.

Lets see here...

40% of all the people in Guatamala are EX Roman Catholics.....

30% of all the people in Brazil are EX Roman Catholics....

22% of all the people in Chile are EX Roman Catholics...

Here in the USA, 20% of all hispanics are now EX Roman Catholics...

Hmmm, is there a pattern here? AHA! Apparently there ARE places that EX Roman Catholics go, are happy with, and find perfectly acceptable replacements, no, an improvement.

Imagine that!

So, the question isn't one YOU are alone in asking, each one of us had to cross that Tiber and swim to a safer shore with fewer sharks.
[/quote]
These data are certain, something less in Brazil and something more in Chile, for my sources. Not this badly for a catholic to do autocritice.
But to call Christians to many of these protestant groups that are in Latinamerican it indicates that do not you know the truth.
We are speaking of you authenticate sects, that in the best of the alone cases they seek money, shows (at times televised), with healings in direct, petitions of money as the television-preachers of USA and messages of hatred to it Catholic.
Not all the Protestants are sectarian, but in Latinamerica many of them, playing with the faith of the simple people and swindling them.

[Budge]

[quote]
We don't defend every abuse by any priest or Catholic. If you go back and research this site, you'll find plenty of criticism fo abuses comitted by various "Catholics" who act contrary to the teachings and disciplines of the Church.
[/quote]

If that was really completely true, you wouldnt get bent out of shape over me exposing these things now would you?

What Cardinals have been denounced on this site EVER ?

Edited August 18, 2006 by Budge