Pacifists

[Extra ecclesiam nulla salus]

this thread is absolutely ridiculous.


The Just War Doctrine has been used and developed by the Church for over 1,000 years.
[quote]
The natural order conducive to peace among mortals demands that the power to declare and counsel war should be in the hands of those who hold the supreme authority.

[b]We do not seek peace in order to be at war, but we go to war that we may have peace. Be peaceful, therefore, in warring, so that you may vanquish those whom you war against, and bring them to the prosperity of peace.[/b][/quote]

-St. Augustine


i think you need to read the Catechism


[quote]Avoiding war

2307 The fifth commandment forbids the intentional destruction of human life. Because of the evils and injustices that accompany all war, the Church insistently urges everyone to prayer and to action so that the divine Goodness may free us from the ancient bondage of war.105

2308 All citizens and all governments are obliged to work for the avoidance of war.

However, "as long as the danger of war persists and there is no international authority with the necessary competence and power, governments cannot be denied the right of lawful self-defense, once all peace efforts have failed."106

2309 The strict conditions for legitimate defense by military force require rigorous consideration. The gravity of such a decision makes it subject to rigorous conditions of moral legitimacy. At one and the same time:

- the damage inflicted by the aggressor on the nation or community of nations must be lasting, grave, and certain;

- all other means of putting an end to it must have been shown to be impractical or ineffective;

- there must be serious prospects of success;

- the use of arms must not produce evils and disorders graver than the evil to be eliminated. The power of modem means of destruction weighs very heavily in evaluating this condition.

These are the traditional elements enumerated in what is called the "just war" doctrine.

The evaluation of these conditions for moral legitimacy belongs to the prudential judgment of those who have responsibility for the common good.

2310 Public authorities, in this case, have the right and duty to impose on citizens the obligations necessary for national defense.

Those who are sworn to serve their country in the armed forces are servants of the security and freedom of nations. If they carry out their duty honorably, they truly contribute to the common good of the nation and the maintenance of peace.107

2311 Public authorities should make equitable provision for those who for reasons of conscience refuse to bear arms; these are nonetheless obliged to serve the human community in some other way.108

2312 The Church and human reason both assert the permanent validity of the moral law during armed conflict. "The mere fact that war has regrettably broken out does not mean that everything becomes licit between the warring parties."109

2313 Non-combatants, wounded soldiers, and prisoners must be respected and treated humanely. [/quote]



War is fought so we can return to True Peace with justice. Without war there would be much more horrible injustices in the world. You are the one deviating from the Teachings of Christ and his Church.

[beatty07]

Regarding Scriptural evidence, here's a few points.

1) John the Baptist told soldiers to not throw their weight around and extort. If pacifism is required, wouldn't he have told them? That's like telling a kidnapper that if he wanted to convert he'd have to be nice to his kidnappees and not charge too much ransom.

2) Jesus, likewise, spoke highly of Jairus' faith and worked a great miracle for him. He never told him to stop being a soldier.

3) Peter was reprimanded for using his sword in the Garden, and "those who live by the sword will die by it." We can't put that Scripture aside, but in interpreting it we have to remember this often-overlooked fact - that Peter was carrying a sword! I'll bet you don't generally picture the Apostles toting weapons (I don't) but there it is.

4) "Let him who has no sword sell his cloak and buy one." In reference to coming tribulation.

[Anomaly]

catholicinSD,
Has a Bishop or Priest ever told you that Pascifism is to be desired? You seem to be a faithful Catholic, but others here seem to show that Pascifism isn NOT allowd by Catholicsim.

[Red Knight]

I am a soldier.

I desire Peace and Justice in the world.

I firmly believe that there is no sector of society that wants peace more than the soldiers that fight and die to secure it.

We must live in this world, and it is fraught with injustice. Because of evil people and the things they do, war is a necessity.

I pray for the soldiers overseas. Not os much that they are physically unharmed, but that they are spiritually unharmed.

I ask you do the same.

[catholicinsd]

My grandmother has lost one son as a indirectly as a result of Veitnam. She what we a call a pacifist. I think if any of you would loose a child to war you'd have a different out-look on the issue.

[The Joey-O]

Awww...man...why wasn't one of the poll choices: "No. I believe laughter is the root word of slaughter for a reason."

[Sojourner]

[quote name='catholicinsd' post='1256541' date='Apr 25 2007, 10:06 PM']My grandmother has lost one son as a indirectly as a result of Veitnam. She what we a call a pacifist. I think if any of you would loose a child to war you'd have a different out-look on the issue.[/quote]
I think that will depend on the person.

Some people will hate the war and become anti-war (read: Cindy Sheehan) while others develop an even firmer resolve to fight and avenge the death of their child.

[Maggyie]

I am not a pacifist myself... I can't see not fighting back in the face of evil, like in the Nazi situation that was brought up earlier. But I don't have a problem with other individuals being pacifists so long as they don't insist that everyone share their views

It would be nice if every soul on earth loathed violence, but the human condition being what it is...

[Sojourner]

I watched a great documentary about Desmond Doss, a conscientious objector who won the medal of honor in WWII. [url="http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/03/25/AR2006032501181.html"]Here is a link to his obituary.[/url] [url="http://www.desmonddoss.com/"]And here is a link to the documentary's website. [/url]

[N/A Gone]

[quote name='The Joey-O' post='1256759' date='Apr 26 2007, 11:03 AM']Awww...man...why wasn't one of the poll choices: "No. I believe laughter is the root word of slaughter for a reason."[/quote]

let me guess....you wanted to know what I would say about this?

[jeffpugh]

Did we ask you? Hahaha...

My answer is no. I don't go about picking fights though. I'm not anyone's whipping boy, but I will take shots until it's necessary to draw the proverbial steel.

[Maggyie]

[quote name='Terra Firma' post='1257354' date='Apr 26 2007, 10:37 PM']I watched a great documentary about Desmond Doss, a conscientious objector who won the medal of honor in WWII. [url="http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/03/25/AR2006032501181.html"]Here is a link to his obituary.[/url] [url="http://www.desmonddoss.com/"]And here is a link to the documentary's website. [/url][/quote]

Cool stuff! I didn't know Seventh-Day Adventists were against carrying arms!

[Akalyte]

do pacifists have anything to do with pacifiers?

[Sojourner]

[quote name='Akalyte' post='1257473' date='Apr 26 2007, 10:25 PM']do pacifists have anything to do with pacifiers?[/quote]
you have baby on the brain don't you


:

[N/A Gone]

[quote name='Sacred Music Man' post='1257358' date='Apr 26 2007, 09:50 PM']Did we ask you? Hahaha...[/quote]


trust me...he wants to know my thought. I have the blood of many on my hands. And he knows this

[Guest T-Bone]

[quote name='Terra Firma' post='1257354' date='Apr 26 2007, 07:37 PM']I watched a great documentary about Desmond Doss, a conscientious objector who won the medal of honor in WWII. [url="http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/03/25/AR2006032501181.html"]Here is a link to his obituary.[/url] [url="http://www.desmonddoss.com/"]And here is a link to the documentary's website. [/url][/quote]

Note how he still served his country, and didn't sit at home whining about "how war is evil." He was a true pacifist, and not a coward.

[cathoholic_anonymous]

[quote]My grandmother has lost one son as a indirectly as a result of Veitnam. She what we a call a pacifist. I think if any of you would loose a child to war you'd have a different out-look on the issue.[/quote]

That's not true. If every person who had lost a child to war became a pacifist, the world would be full of them. Recently I was reading an interview with the mother of a British soldier who died in Iraq. She affirmed the need for soldiers like her son. She was obviously very upset, but she understood that death is a risk you must accept if you join the military.

My own brother fought in Iraq for a six-month term. Personally I don't support this particular war, but I believe that my brother did the right thing by going. He himself has questioned the validity of the war, but he knows very well that when he joined Her Majesty's Forces he undertook a duty to the Queen and to this country that he can't shirk. He also believed that as an individual he had the power to make Iraq a better place, so he tried his best. I'm proud of him for that.

There are some pacifists whom I deeply respect, despite being a just war theorist myself. The Quakers did a marvellous job in World War One - they used to go out into landmine-peppered no man's land to recover the dead and nurse the wounded. That was an extremely dangerous job, just as dangerous as the fighting itself. Then there are people like Siegfried Sassoon, who started out as a war hero who fought faithfully in the trenches and then decided that due to the mismanagement of the war and the needless loss of life that resulted from this he had no choice but to conscientiously object. But there is a big difference between objecting to the way a war is being dealt with and condemning all fighting outright. It's possible to say that Vietnam was handled badly without saying that war is intriniscally evil.

Edited April 27, 2007 by Cathoholic Anonymous

[Winchester]

[quote name='catholicinsd' post='1182796' date='Feb 2 2007, 12:14 AM']So you go againist the Church teaching of turning the other cheek? Nice.[/quote]
Don't turn your head too fast or you'll whack someone with that huge frikking beam sticking out of your eye and that would go against your pacifism.

[hoosieranna]

I don't usually support offensive wars, but I will defend myself and my family. I will always support the troops. There needs to be a third poll option other than yes or no-it may be a question of degrees.

[kenrockthefirst]

[quote name='catholicinsd' post='1182974' date='Feb 2 2007, 09:30 AM']The Peace of Christ can never be felt as long as Wars are fought.[/quote]

True. But we live in a Fallen world.