Cloistered Nuns: Locked Behind The Grate

[Maggyie]

[quote]Yes I do feel sorry for them they do not have the opportunity to get married or have children, of course in the secular world this will not happen for all, but they are blocked from it for good. I dont know about convents but I believe this imposed celibacy has certain been a disaster for the male side of the aisle.[/quote]Please, please understand that this way of life IS NOT IMPOSED. I think you would be surprised by just how free a choice this is, often made against the wishes of one's family. It is not an easy decision, either. Many Sisters have led extensive, highly successful lives in the outside world. I know several Sisters who got advanced degrees and THEN chose the religious life. They were not cloudy-headed naives who were "brainwashed" into it. If anything, they encountered a lot of opposition in choosing to follow God's call.
[quote]
Then there is stuff like the punishments, where nuns have to confess chapter of faults, other nuns are told report other nuns for their transgressions to the Superior, My UU ex-nun told me about that one. I dont know if they get the toothbrushes out to clean the floors anymore or make them lay prostrate on the ground in the dining hall for punishment but if thats happening its pure nonsense, and more of what I'm talking about when the whole idea is to break down the will of a young girl and suppress her God-given personality.[/quote]

The Chapter of Faults is not to break down one's personality, it is to train one in humility and make one more aware of one's actions. I know you are just being honest, but I don't think an ex-nun in the Unitarian church is a good source for info about religious life. From what you say she sounds somewhat bitter. Perhaps she wasn't in a position to be fair?

[quote]Monasteries and Convents do not understand the concept of the Body of Christ, it is to be living with others, here on this earth, other Christians!, spreading the gospel. Locking yourself away does no one any favors and is actually in my opinion against the parable of talents, youre literally BURYING yourself and your TALENTS![/quote]

The point of a monastery and a convent is to live in community WITH OTHER CHRISTIANS! There are sooo many opportunities to use your talents in the convent or monastery. Check out the [url="http://www.daughtersofstpaul.com/daughters/vocations/vocmiss.html"]Daughters of St. Paul,[/url] for instance. You might be surprised!

[cmotherofpirl]

This doesn't suprise me Budge, many fundamentalist have an extremely limited narrow view of life.

Anything that Budge doesn't understand, Budge condemns.

[Budge]

What is imagined?

I went myself to 5 cloistered websites alone to see if I was wrong about that silence thing, and if they were really only allowed to talk one hour...4 out of the 5 mandated it.

Ive read several memroirs by nuns and ex-nuns, and no it wasnt Maria Monk...{I didnt express tales of nuns being beaten or and other horrors did I?}

The "cover you from head to toe" habit, is showed right on the OLAM website, thats Mother Anglicas house and it IS in Alabama

Here take a look..{the one pictured could be an extern but the rest dress that way}

[url="http://www.olamshrine.com/olam/images/schedule_bellringer.jpg"]http://www.olamshrine.com/olam/images/sche..._bellringer.jpg[/url]

Is Chapter of Faults now something that has been done way with?

many orders do dress the nuns as brides before their final vows...

Nun dressed as a bride during vows...

[url="http://www.cmri.org/steps.htm"]http://www.cmri.org/steps.htm[/url]

so what did I make up?

[Thy Geekdom Come]

Why do I always get the feeling that Budge has me on ignore? I clarified why they have bars and she just completely ignored me.

Budge, those kinds of tactics are just plain rude.

[Maggyie]

[quote]Ive read several memroirs by nuns and ex-nuns, and no it wasnt Maria Monk...{I didnt express tales of nuns being beaten or and other horrors did I?}[/quote]

Could you possibly provide titles or author names? I would appreciate it. I am interested in just where you acquired these ideas about nuns.

[hoosieranna]

[quote name='Budge' post='1220006' date='Mar 26 2007, 07:12 PM']Here take a look..{the one pictured could be an extern but the rest dress that way}

[url="http://www.olamshrine.com/olam/images/schedule_bellringer.jpg"]http://www.olamshrine.com/olam/images/sche..._bellringer.jpg[/url]

Is Chapter of Faults now something that has been done way with?

many orders do dress the nuns as brides before their final vows...

Nun dressed as a bride during vows...

[url="http://www.cmri.org/steps.htm"]http://www.cmri.org/steps.htm[/url][/quote]

To Budge,

The one pictured is a novice. Both externs and cloistered nuns wear the full habit. There might be some differences between what the solemnly professed nuns and the externs wear in terms of "jewelry". I don't know for sure. Let someone who knows explain.

Even I know the second congregation is not in communion with Rome, and I'm not Catholic. Also, they aren't cloistered.

These are small details that can be explained in great detail by someone who knows for sure.

Last, like I said, I'm not Catholic, but I recognize the value of withdrawal. These women choose cloister. They have between 5 and 6 years of formation during which to figure out if enclosure is for them. They aren't bound by solemn vows as soon as they go through the cloister door. It is a choice, just like your choice to post "debate" threads that don't actually allow debate.

Just a thought. Of course, I'll probably be on your dislike list now.

Edited March 26, 2007 by Nadezhda

[jeffpugh]

[quote name='Budge' post='1219868' date='Mar 26 2007, 10:42 AM']Sure I see their posts, I think what a shame...

Especially the photos of the young 20 something girls with iron bars seperating them from their families.[/quote]

Always making the tear-jerking appeal... "oh noes! the Families!!! You're tearing away from their innocent loving, caring parents!!" Where do you get this narrow-mindedness about this vocation? They totally chose to go there, even if the parents don't agree, though in some cases everyone is accepting. No one is truly separated from those they love. There is heaven at the end of it all, remember???

[quote name='Nadezhda' post='1220017' date='Mar 26 2007, 08:45 PM']To Budge,

The one pictured is a novice. Both externs and cloistered nuns wear the full habit. There might be some differences between what the solemnly professed nuns and the externs wear in terms of "jewelry". I don't know for sure. Let someone who knows explain.

Even I know the second congregation is not in communion with Rome, and I'm not Catholic. Also, they aren't cloistered.

These are small details that can be explained in great detail by someone who knows for sure.

Last, like I said, I'm not Catholic, but I recognize the value of withdrawal. These women choose cloister. They have between 5 and 6 years of formation during which to figure out if enclosure is for them. They aren't bound by solemn vows as soon as they go through the cloister door. It is a choice, just like your choice to post "debate" threads that don't actually allow debate.

Just a thought. Of course, I'll probably be on your dislike list now.[/quote]

Good points. Don't worry about getting on Budge's hitlist. It doesn't take much as I have found... or am I on that list?

[Mateo el Feo]

What I find so interesting is the contrast between Budge and these women who have dedicated their lives to Our Lord as religious sisters. Looking at the pictures of the cloistered nuns "locked behind the grate," they all invariably have these glowing smiles, unable to hide the joy and peace that derives from their vocation, living a life of prayer and service to the Lord. On the other hand, there's Budge, who's trying her best to paint the drabbest picture of cloistered life, conjuring up all the worn-out cliches she can think of.

But who's the unhappy one? The woman who gives her life as a gift to the Lord, or Budge who is constantly searching for the faults of others?

Ironically, I think most people here can see the prison Budge has built around herself; a prison whose bars of criticism and prejudice keep her from sharing an intimacy with the body of Christ, the community of believers.

[hoosieranna]

Dear Budge,

Since you seem to be nit-picking, here's another thing to consider. The nuns in the first picture appear to be Vistandines, unless I've really got the wrong habit. They have two periods of recreation a day.

Going on about only speaking 1 hour a day doesn't hold water. As noted, Vistandines and Discalced Carmelite nuns have two periods of recreation a day. So do the Pink Sisters, if I remember correctly. Also, the nuns are asleep for 5-7, even 8 hours a day. People don't generally converse while sleeping. If you really want to get your knickers in a twist about silence, complain about the Carthusians. They're very strict.

Finally, you neglect to mention the difference between constitutional enclosure and papal enclosure. Nuns under constitutional enclosure do go out on more occasions than those under papal enclosure. Many Benedictine nuns are under constitutional. Was it [i]ever[/i] stated on the "4 or 5" (out of hundreds) contemplative sites you visited that the nuns are forbidden visits or mail from family and close friends?

I'm not Catholic, but I'm tired of non-Catholic Christians being made to look foolish by those who rave but say nothing. Frankly, we don't need much help. Don't post things you can't back up, dear one.

Edited March 27, 2007 by Nadezhda

[Socrates]

Becoming a cloistered nun is a willing choice - no one is ever forced into becoming a nun. And there is a long discernment process before one takes her final vows. If either the candidate or her superior decides she does not have a vocation, she can leave.
I had a friend who joined a cloistered convent, and was very joyful about her decision, which she made out of love of God. After several years as a postulant, she left to further discern her vocation. She is currently happily employed as a school teacher.
I know several others who have left convents after a discerment period, and some are married. Others are living joyfully in their consecrated life of prayer.

The opinions of Budge are irrelevent to the truth of this. As usual, she is spouting off what she knows nothing about.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

Yeah, like Socrates said, nuns can always leave the convent if they and the superiors decide it is the best choice. Just look at Mrs. Von Trapp.

[Starets]

Budge Budge Budge

There are ample opportunities during the postulance and noviciate and even the juniorate to leave on your own free will. there are ample opportunities to be kicked out. they choose willingly to serve under these strictures.

I have been to Christ in the Desert, the monastery featered in The Monastery TV show a few months ago. I was in the Chapter Room when the production company made its pitch to the community.

And yes it is a community. It is just as much a community as a small town a church is a community. Perhapse even more so, as you are living with the same people you work with.

sure 4AM is awful early. Sure there are explicit rules that you don't have to deal with as a single or married person in "the world". Sure sometimes you get abbots/abbesses who are jerks/beeshes. But that isn't the hardest thing about monastic life. Its the fact that you live with the same people 24x7.

[TotusTuusMaria]

[center]J.M.J.[/center]

[quote name='Budge' post='1219992' date='Mar 26 2007, 05:53 PM']I feel sorry for them because..

They are trapped in the false teachings of Catholicism and they are taken even deeper into these falsehoods, told they must forsake these things to become "holy" and live for God when that is not true.[/quote]

The "false" teachings of Catholicism have not commanded us to forsake all things to become holy and live for God. It is Christ who first told us to forsake all things to become holy and live for God. One cannot justify saying that Our Lord has not called us to be poor and renounce ourselves and all we have for love of Him. He died for us, we in turn are called to die to Him in the sense that everything we possess whether it be objects, our wills that go against His, and even the good things that He has given us, if he calls us too, we should renounce them in a heart beat. There are some souls He does call. And in general He calls us all to be poor in spiritual and material wealth, "for the least of you shall be the greatest in the Kingdom of Heaven".

"Everyone who has left houses, brothers, sisters, father, mother, children or lands for the sake of my name will be repaid a hundred times over and also inherit eternal life." (Matt. 19:29)

"[b] If thou wilt to be perfect[/b], go sell what thou hast, and give it to the poor." (Matt. 19:21)

"None of you can be my disciple unless he gives up all his possessions" (Luke 14:33)

"You shall love with your [b]whole[/b] heart, with your [b]whole[/b] soul, with your [b]whole[/b] mind, and with [b]all[/b] your strength." (Mark 12:30)

"It is easier for a camel to pass though the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven" (Matt. 19:24)

[quote]Yes I do feel sorry for them they do not have the opportunity to get married or have children, of course in the secular world this will not happen for all, but they are blocked from it for good. I dont know about convents but I believe this imposed celibacy has certain been a disaster for the male side of the aisle.[/quote]

Christ was celibate. It it were such a great evil to remain pure and chaste would Jesus, who is perfect, have been celibate? But yet, he was. That says something. Being celibate and totally chaste and pure is a beautiful thing, for Jesus was totally and chaste and pure and lived a celibate life. Can following the example of Christ be a wrong thing?

And Christ says, "He answered, 'Not all can accept [this] word, but only those to whom that is granted. Some are incapable of marriage because they were born so; some, because they were made so by others; some, because they have renounced marriage for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. Whoever can accept this ought to accept it.'" (Matt. 19-12)

It also says in Matthew 22:30, "Jesus said to them in reply, 'You are misled because you do not know the scriptures or the power of God. At the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage but are like the angels in heaven.'"

St. Paul writes, "An unmarried woman or a virgin is anxious about the things of the Lord, so that she may be holy in both body and spirit. A married woman, on the other hand, is anxious about the things of the world, how she may please her husband.
I am telling you this for your own benefit, not to impose a restraint upon you, but for the sake of propriety and adherence to the Lord without distraction." He even goes on to encourage those who are virgins to remain so, for the Lord's day is upon us.

It does not seem to me like Christ ever taught nor any of the early Christians (which chastity and celibacy are both talked of in high admiration by the early Church Fathers as well) that chastity or celibacy are wrong or evil. We are all called to serve Christ differently, and if one is called to lead a celibate life it should not be looked down upon or said that that vocation is not the will of God because the Gospels, St. Paul, and the early Church tell us differently.

God bless you!

In Jesus and Mary,
Marie

[Piamaria]

On SUnday I visited QUeen of Peace Dominican Monastery (cloistered) and was privileged to visit with them and ask for their prayers as I begin my non-cloistered religious life. Budge honey, you are clueless. Their faith and joy lit up that monastery.
Why don't you just accept that there are things you, like the rest of us, just don't understand. AND let it go.

[Budge]

Staretz.

I watched the Monastery show.

To be honest, here were some of things I saw...

1. The Abbot talked like he was a Jedi master, if one didnt know that was a catholic monastery, he could have ran a Buddhist one and been perfectly fine. He seemed to have mastered the art of Zen Koans. I saw a lot of meditation being taught in that place but very little Christianity.

2. The second in command, well, besides having a very "prim" personality, I found him to an extremely effeminate person. This is not to say what he is guilty of or not. He seemed more busy pushing senseless rules then anything else. The one guy only had one leg and they kept making him stand. Anyone on a prothesis would be in horrible pain. The guy was a Marine so you think hed say anything about the pain making him sit? Probably not.

3. The daily schedule seemed workable except perhaps the grinding hours of rote prayer...they seemed more invested in going within themselves--the false contemplation, rather then true Biblical prayer or Bible study.

4. Those young men were probably turned off of what they thought was "Christianity" for good. Most of them ended up leaving. Who could blame them? I believe BOREDOM led most of them to leave not even denial of hedonistic pleasures. True worship of God is not boring but it definitely was in that place.

[kenrockthefirst]

[quote name='Budge' post='1221104' date='Mar 28 2007, 09:25 AM']Staretz.

I watched the Monastery show.

To be honest, here were some of things I saw...

1. The Abbot talked like he was a Jedi master, if one didnt know that was a catholic monastery, he could have ran a Buddhist one and been perfectly fine. He seemed to have mastered the art of Zen Koans. I saw a lot of meditation being taught in that place but very little Christianity.

2. The second in command, well, besides having a very "prim" personality, I found him to an extremely effeminate person. This is not to say what he is guilty of or not. He seemed more busy pushing senseless rules then anything else. The one guy only had one leg and they kept making him stand. Anyone on a prothesis would be in horrible pain. The guy was a Marine so you think hed say anything about the pain making him sit? Probably not.

3. The daily schedule seemed workable except perhaps the grinding hours of rote prayer...they seemed more invested in going within themselves--the false contemplation, rather then true Biblical prayer or Bible study.

4. Those young men were probably turned off of what they thought was "Christianity" for good. Most of them ended up leaving. Who could blame them? I believe BOREDOM led most of them to leave not even denial of hedonistic pleasures. True worship of God is not boring but it definitely was in that place.[/quote]

Speaking of Jedi masters, Yoda might say of you, "there is much anger in this one."

What are you so pissed off at, Budge? As an excellent priest I once knew put it, if you get upset at your butcher, you don't stop eating meat. So, something happened with you and the Catholic Church. Deal with it. Don't come in here throwing bombs to somehow try and justify your choices and the decisions you made. Who are you really trying to convince?

[Budge]

While monasteries and cloistered convents are based on false aseticism at least on the individual level on the corporate level they do what seems to be a lot of wealth. I guess all that free labor adds up to something after awhile.


So how "poor" they are up is up to debate. OLAM has the shrine literally covered in GOLD and marble tile. They have these huge buildings, with tiled floors and huge restaurant kitchens even in the middle of nowhere like on that Monastery show. The Abbot had his lavish funiture and they had their Southwest decor.

So being POOR in spiritual and material wealth, sure on one level they are, but DEFINITELY NOT on another. In some ways these nuns have it better then most people in the regular workday world, who have to wrory baout keeping the rent paid and such and eating ramen noodles because they are low on grocery money.

I know what real poverty is, and most of those nuns aint living it. Real poverty is when you dont even own a stove to cook on and rent and food are negotiable. As I told you I see the attraction to that life...except for the false religion, and cult aspect and control, having a ready made community, place to live and no worries about bills sounds absolutely cushy.

Im curious for all the would be nuns here, do you still have to pay the dowry? Or did that go by in years past?

[quote]
Christ was celibate. It it were such a great evil to remain pure and chaste would Jesus, who is perfect, have been celibate? But yet, he was. That says something. Being celibate and totally chaste and pure is a beautiful thing, for Jesus was totally and chaste and pure and lived a celibate life. Can following the example of Christ be a wrong thing?[/quote]Jesus stayed celibate because He was GOD.

Now I know your church thinks everyone whose had sex, even happily married people who have followed all biblical rules regarding sex, are somehow lower down the "holiness" totem pole....but thats not someting I agree with.

There again, your church with this glorifcation of celibacy, has built a priesthood that has been plagued by sexual problems, one of which I think is based in this teaching...it automatically makes the pool of candidates more likely to be sexual ambivalents and homosexuals.

The Bible just makes it clear that some people will not marry, and some will forgo marriage for even other reasons like preacying the gospels, but it doesnt say anywhere, now build a house and put a bunch of single people who want to stay celibate forever in it.
[quote]

On SUnday I visited QUeen of Peace Dominican Monastery (cloistered) and was privileged to visit with them and ask for their prayers as I begin my non-cloistered religious life. Budge honey, you are clueless. Their faith and joy lit up that monastery.
Why don't you just accept that there are things you, like the rest of us, just don't understand. AND let it go.[/quote]

Who said they would all be miserable and crying their eyes out? Even Hare Krishnas look "happy" Actually I know for a fact that while one is in the convent, oens attitude is assessed night and day. If you were sitting their bawling your eyes out, and or depressed, Im sure youd get called into the Superiors office for a dressing down.

If youre were a visitor, you think they were going to tell you their troubles, no theyd put their best face forward.

Actually if I visited a monstery theyd probably throw me out within 2 days for bringing KJV Bibles with me and preaching the true gospel.

The one where you dont have to work and suffer your way there, and its all dependent on Jesus Christ.

[Budge]

[quote]
Speaking of Jedi masters, Yoda might say of you, "there is much anger in this one."[/quote]Actually when I was watching that show with my husband, i kept cracking up, changing that dudes sentences to Yoda Speak, and IT MATCHED exactly.

LOLOL


[quote]
What are you so pissed off at, Budge?[/quote]

Ah the psychological analysis...

Actually I had plenty of friends and others in my last Catholic Church, including position as RE teacher. No one "pissed" me off.

If I show any anger at all, it is righteous anger at a church teaching FALSE things to people leading them to hell.

[quote]As an excellent priest I once knew put it, if you get upset at your butcher, you don't stop eating meat. So, something happened with you and the Catholic Church. Deal with it. Don't come in here throwing bombs to somehow try and justify your choices and the decisions you made. Who are you really trying to convince?[/quote]

Not many people are called to warn people out of cults.

One thing the cult members will ALWAYS say is the problem is with the MESSENGER rather then listening to the message.

[kenrockthefirst]

[quote name='Budge' post='1221113' date='Mar 28 2007, 09:48 AM']Not many people are called to warn people out of cults.

One thing the cult members will ALWAYS say is the problem is with the MESSENGER rather then listening to the message.[/quote]

You seem to think that if folks here get annoyed or upset with you it [i]must[/i] be because you're shining the Light of Truth into our poor, dark, papist places.

Didja ever stop to think that it might just be because you're annoying and upsetting?

[Budge]

wow you seem really intent on changing the subject to ME.

Im not forcing you to read any of my threads.

You seem to get very personally bent out of shape just over someone disagreeing with you.


Thats a problem.