What To Do With Troops In Iraq

[KnightofChrist]

Who I am would not change who my family and loved ones are. You still know nothing.



You still imply Bush was a lier, but now his not. The Bush Administration says 1.77 tons of enriched uranium has been found in Iraq. Anyway I'm not going to "bicker over nonsense" anymore, really this time I swears.


Bahbye,
KoC

[RezaMikhaeil]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1228328' date='Apr 3 2007, 09:20 AM']Who I am would not change who my family and loved ones are. You still know nothing.

[b]Sure I do and you're not hiding nothing LOL[/b]

You still imply Bush was a lier, but now his not. The Bush Administration says 1.77 tons of enriched uranium has been found in Iraq. Anyway I'm not going to "bicker over nonsense" anymore, really this time I swears.

[b]That's the problem, I never said Bush is a Liar, I said you and your sources are [/b]
Bahbye,
KoC[/quote]

Edited April 3, 2007 by RezaLemmyng

[Budge]

Reza,

This is Catholic written, I think Lee Penn though I certainly disagree with him on Catholicism has many things right.

[url="http://www.scp-inc.org/publications/journals/J2704/"]http://www.scp-inc.org/publications/journals/J2704/[/url]

[RezaMikhaeil]

Interesting article, thanks for sharing.

[ironmonk]

hmmmm....

[quote]forced to stand or kneel for extended periods, thrown against walls, deprived of sleep by 24-hour light, deprived of pain medication for wounds, and otherwise subjected to "stress and duress.[/quote]

Discomfortable yes, torture... [b][u]not even close[/u][/b].

Anyone who states those discomfort techniques resemble communist and terrorist techniques used show that they lack a great deal of knowledge and are very naive to the world.

Want to learn about torture, talk to the Iraqis. They know torture by the hands of Saddam and his men.

Let's start with a garden hose slowly inserted and yanked out to disembowel them. Hey, prisons are full, let's not build new ones, just kill everyone and release two people to tell others the horror they've seen... sounds pretty bad eh? That's what Saddam did. Let's talk about how he would force husbands to watch their wives raped.

[url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_Saddam_Hussein's_Iraq"]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_...sein's_Iraq[/url]


Whoever thinks standing and kneeling for extended periods of time, shoved against walls and sleep depervation is torture either has no clue what torture is or is one incrediblly weak panzy. Time to grow up and wise up. To say that these discomforts are torture is an insult to the innocent lives that have experienced real torture. This Penn guy is a kook. His marksist views are obvious... Catholic - maybe in name only - if at all. SCP is in gross error and ignorance when it comes to the Christian faith, if their faith is built on poor research that is easily corrected with a little study, then very little they have can be trusted without double checking everything they claim.

[ironmonk]

One more thing... Saddam's men loved to tape their evils... [url="http://fdd.typepad.com/fdd/2006/01/alert_saddams_c.html"]http://fdd.typepad.com/fdd/2006/01/alert_saddams_c.html[/url]

[musturde]

I'm confused. has this topic been off the wall or is it just me? I think there definitely needs more than just three options for this poll. The main reason would be because we can't really win from this point. Most people who are of Middle Eastern descent or know much about politics in Iraq would tell you that Iraq is gunna end up in a Civil War. Now how long our troops can keep stability within the country before this happens is another question. It kind of shocks me how most liberals(who I'm not trying to bash) are all for sending the troops home as fast as possible. I mean some of them know Iraq will be in shambles right when we leave but they really don't care. This is just cruel to me. I think any talks about the past intentons really serve no purpose now. The damage is done and we can look through hindsight and complain about it all we want, it doesn't exactly affect whether we keep our troops in or not.

Thats just my 6 cents.

Edited April 4, 2007 by musturde

[Red Knight]

Reza,

After reading your posts, I must say, I have zero respect for your opinions.

I also must say that prying into the personal lives of those on this board is simply uncalled for.

Don't accuse people of not knowing what they are talking about simply because you disagree.

I know someone, that I trust far more than ANY politician, that saw, with THEIR OWN EYES, WMD in Iraq. Whether or not anybody further up their chain of command did anything with the report is beyond the scope. You completely disregarded my earlier post and brushed it aside as tripe, because it wasn't from the President. Whoop dee friggin doo! Do you believe everything a politician says, or only what you want too for your personal gain?

So you have family over there? Does that make you an expert?

I noticed you threw allot of terms around interchangeably that aren't. For example, Persian and Iraqi. Roughly 75-80 percent of Iraqi's are Arab, Persian are NOT. In fact, fewer than 5% of Iraqi's are "Other", which includes Turk men and Persians, etc. Now, to add to that, roughly 3% of Iranians are Arab. Based solely on numbers, that means approximately 2 million Iranians are Arabs and less than 1 million Iraqi's are Persian. So, best case, 3 million people in Iraq and Iran combined could share direct relation based on ethnic group alone. That is only 3% of the total combined population of 95.5 million people.

Why all the numbers? To illustrate that you assumed those of us on the board are too stupid or ignorant to realize that not everybody with 'olive' skin is the same. You use stereotypes to further your agenda, how quaint.

Your arrogance and condescension is palpable and disgusting.

All are wrong but you and those you can convince.

I KNOW there is an Insurgency in Iraq.

I KNOW Iraq is NOT in a civil war.

I KNOW that there were and probably still are WMD in Iraq.

Will I ever convince you?

I doubt it.

[Guest T-Bone]

[quote]After reading your posts, I must say, I have zero respect for your opinions.[/quote]



Somebody had to say it.

[RezaMikhaeil]

[quote name='Red Knight' post='1229259' date='Apr 3 2007, 11:47 PM']Reza,

After reading your posts, I must say, I have zero respect for your opinions.

[b]I don't really care what you think of me, I'm a former soldier that won't have false claims disrespecting the military or the commander and chief's administration with false claims. You don't like me, I don't like you, who cares.[/b]

I also must say that prying into the personal lives of those on this board is simply uncalled for.

[b]If someone claims to be a soldier or whatever else and it doesn't check out, I'm going to say something about it. I believe in freedom of speech and if someone's going to open their mouth about the armed forces, in the name of armed forces that I know as a fact, as a soldier isn't true, I'm going to say something, end of story.[/b]

Don't accuse people of not knowing what they are talking about simply because you disagree.

[b]See that's not what it's about, it's about knowing based upon their statements that don't check out.[/b]

I know someone, that I trust far more than ANY politician, that saw, with THEIR OWN EYES, WMD in Iraq. Whether or not anybody further up their chain of command did anything with the report is beyond the scope.

[b]Now you're talking more conspiracy theoryish then Michael Moore or that film "loose change", that's a ridiculous claim, to say that some random soldier knows about it but the commander and cheif doesn't. Seriously, where do you come up with this stuff?[/b]

You completely disregarded my earlier post and brushed it aside as tripe, because it wasn't from the President. Whoop dee friggin doo! Do you believe everything a politician says, or only what you want too for your personal gain?

[b]I trust that the commander and chief would use that evidence to resurrect his presidency if WMD were found. Why would Mr. Bush allow his admin to go down negatively in the publics eyes, when he has the opportunity to change that perspective? Why would he not reveal the very element that could help him? That's a ridiculous and pointless claim. I read your previous post, I just didn't give it the time of day just like I don't give Mr. Moore the time of day.[/b]

So you have family over there? Does that make you an expert?

[b]In regards to Sunni/Shiite civil war, it gives me the credentials to speak about it. It's not from some random media source, but from the horses mouth.[/b]

I noticed you threw allot of terms around interchangeably that aren't. For example, Persian and Iraqi. Roughly 75-80 percent of Iraqi's are Arab, Persian are NOT.

[b]See this is ridiculous claim. The Shiites are not Arab, they're Persian. Iran is the persian capitol of the world. Most shiites in Iraq have relatives in Iran. If you think that Shiites in Iraq, are arab then you've got another thing comming, unless of course you're one of those people that believe most people in Iran are Arabs.[/b]

In fact, fewer than 5% of Iraqi's are "Other", which includes Turk men and Persians, etc. Now, to add to that, roughly 3% of Iranians are Arab.

[b]This isn't true, how could the Shiites be the largest demographic in Iraq, be Arab and have relatives in Iran that are persian? That makes no sense. Every single Shiite in Iraq was born in Iran. Shiite are 60% of the population in Iraq.[/b]

Based solely on numbers, that means approximately 2 million Iranians are Arabs and less than 1 million Iraqi's are Persian. So, best case, 3 million people in Iraq and Iran combined could share direct relation based on ethnic group alone. That is only 3% of the total combined population of 95.5 million people.

[b]No the truth is that only 2% of Iranians are Arab, that is 140,000 people. In regards to your demographics, I'm sure that you're getting them from some online source so in with that, I'm going to say "Some argue that the 2003 Iraq Census shows that Sunnis were a slight majority"[/b]

Why all the numbers? To illustrate that you assumed those of us on the board are too stupid or ignorant to realize that not everybody with 'olive' skin is the same. You use stereotypes to further your agenda, how quaint.

[b]No, rather I don't trust your sources, simple and plain and having direct contact with the culture, I know that your book can't teach you what tradition has proven.[/b]

Your arrogance and condescension is palpable and disgusting.

[b]No what's disgusting is that you assume that you know more then the commander and chief and those that have actually been in the military and served their country.[/b]

All are wrong but you and those you can convince.

[b]No actually, it's quite the opposite. A grip of people [if you go back and read] have actually taken similiar views to mine, and they were serverely attacked. See the truth is that I could give you links to 2,000 different articles that proved my point from a bias perspective [as KOC has], but I'm not interested in a propaganda war, I'm interested in the truth.[/b]

I KNOW there is an Insurgency in Iraq.

[b]Really? Have you seen it with your own eyes?[/b]

I KNOW Iraq is NOT in a civil war.

[b]Sunnis and Shiites killing each other in the middle and southern regions, Syriac Orthodox being brutally murdered by Kurds in the North. Sunnis attacking Kurds from time to time, if that isn't a civil war, then I don't know what is. I'd also like to reflect back, that the head general in Iraq, General Abizaid has even said that it's a civil war. Sectarian violence is civil and it's turned into a war, C-I-V-I-L-W-A-R, can we spell it? When sunni women, have to worry about their husbands being dragged out of their homes for being sunni, when shia have to take great risks to go on their pilgrimages, man that's definately a civil war. As I'd heard it before, "if it spells like a duck, walks like a duck, acts like a duck... it's usually a duck and definately not a giraff.[/b]

I KNOW that there were and probably still are WMD in Iraq.

[b]You know huh? Man, you should run for president, cause you obviously know more then those that have served in Iraq, more then the President of the United States, more then the head general in Iraq, man you got credentials. Then once you get into power, you can lead the troops right to the spot and scream it to the world like a 14 year old girl "YEAH FELLAS RIGHT THERE IS WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION, I TOLD YOU THAT IT WAS HERE"[/b]

Will I ever convince you?

[b]Oh, can't you tell... I'm convinced, I'm convinced! Carol Anne don't go into the light [/b]
I doubt it.[/quote]

Edited April 4, 2007 by RezaLemmyng

[RezaMikhaeil]

Note of Typo: Every single Shiite cleric in Iraq was born in Iran. Shiite are 60% of the population in Iraq.

[KnightofChrist]

You do not know my family, or my loved ones. Your a lier if you say you do, and you say you do or imply it so your a lier.


You are calling the Bush Administration lairs, The departments of Energy and Defense are part of the Bush Administration and have stated 1.77 tons of enriched uranium has been found in Iraq.


So... Ironmonk is an lier as well, where is he a lier? You have remain silent to his statements I just wonder why? And why have you chosen rather to slip more into a dishonest/disrespectful illrelavent stance.



NOTE LINK TO THE DEPARTMENT OF ENERGY'S WEBSITE


[url="http://www.energy.gov/news/1388.htm"]U.S. Removes Iraqi Nuclear and Radiological Materials[/url]
Joint Operation Conducted with U.S. Departments of Energy and Defense

WASHINGTON, DC -- Energy Secretary Spencer Abraham announced today that the Department of Energy (DOE) and the Department of Defense (DOD) have completed a joint operation to secure and remove from Iraq radiological and nuclear materials that could potentially be used in a radiological dispersal device or diverted to support a nuclear weapons program.

“This operation was a major achievement for the Bush Administration’s goal to keep potentially dangerous nuclear materials out of the hands of terrorists,” Secretary Abraham said. “It also puts this material out of reach for countries that may seek to develop their own nuclear weapons.”

Twenty experts from DOE’s national laboratory complex packaged 1.77 metric tons of low-enriched uranium and roughly 1000 highly radioactive sources from the former Iraq nuclear research facility. The DOD airlifted the material to the United States on June 23 and provided security, coordination, planning, ground transportation, and funding for the mission.

Due to safety and security issues surrounding the removed materials, the U.S., consistent with its authorities and relevant United Nations Security Council Resolutions, took possession of, and removed the materials to ensure the safety and security of the Iraqi people.

DOE also repackaged less sensitive materials that will remain in Iraq. Radiological sources that continue to serve useful medical, agricultural or industrial purposes were not removed from Iraq.

The low enriched uranium will be stored temporarily at a secure DOE facility and the radiological sources will initially be brought to a DOE laboratory for further characterization and disposition.

The International Atomic Energy Agency was advised in advance of the U.S. intentions to remove the nuclear materials. Iraqi officials were briefed about the removal of the materials and sources prior to evacuation.

The nuclear research complex, now under the responsibility of the Iraq Ministry of Science and Technology, was once a central institution for Iraq’s nuclear weapons program before being dismantled in the early 1990s, following the first Gulf War. The complex was also the consolidation point for highly radioactive sources collected by the Department of Defense with assistance by employees of the Ministry of Science and Technology within Iraq over the last year.

Edited April 4, 2007 by KnightofChrist

[RezaMikhaeil]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1229375' date='Apr 4 2007, 03:09 AM']You do not know my family, or my loved ones. Your a lier if you say you do, and you say you do or imply it so your a lier.

[b]It's pretty obvious that you're not a soldier, and through your propaganda, you're undermining the brave men and women that are serving so you can have your freedom of speech.[/b]

You are calling the Bush Administration lairs,

[b]No, No, No, No, No... I called YOU A LIAR, because you've said that the Bush administration is lying about saying there were NO WMD FOUND.[/b]

The departments of Energy and Defense are part of the Bush Administration and have stated 1.77 tons of enriched uranium has been found in Iraq.

[b]You don't know if that document speaks for them or somebody else. You only have 3 pages, out of a document [who you don't even know who wrote] that could be thousands upon thousands of pages long.[/b]

So... Ironmonk is an lier as well, where is he a lier? You have remain silent to his statements I just wonder why? And why have you chosen rather to slip more into a dishonest/disrespectful illrelavent stance.

[b]What's more dishonest, littering, what would be a good discussion about the war with propaganda [as you have done] or taking the mainline truth, that the Bush Administration has even declared?[/b]

NOTE LINK TO THE DEPARTMENT OF ENERGY'S WEBSITE
[url="http://www.energy.gov/news/1388.htm"]U.S. Removes Iraqi Nuclear and Radiological Materials[/url]
Joint Operation Conducted with U.S. Departments of Energy and Defense

[b]You don't know "what nuclear materials" they're referencing. You know that Iraq [as other countries] have the right to have nuclear power plants [among other nuclear activities].[/b]

WASHINGTON, DC -- Energy Secretary Spencer Abraham announced today that the Department of Energy (DOE) and the Department of Defense (DOD) have completed a joint operation to secure and remove from Iraq radiological and nuclear materials that could potentially be used in a radiological dispersal device or diverted to support a nuclear weapons program.

“This operation was a major achievement for the Bush Administration’s goal to keep potentially dangerous nuclear materials out of the hands of terrorists,” Secretary Abraham said. “It also puts this material out of reach for countries that may seek to develop their own nuclear weapons.”

Twenty experts from DOE’s national laboratory complex packaged 1.77 metric tons of low-enriched uranium and roughly 1000 highly radioactive sources from the former Iraq nuclear research facility. The DOD airlifted the material to the United States on June 23 and provided security, coordination, planning, ground transportation, and funding for the mission.

Due to safety and security issues surrounding the removed materials, the U.S., consistent with its authorities and relevant United Nations Security Council Resolutions, took possession of, and removed the materials to ensure the safety and security of the Iraqi people.

DOE also repackaged less sensitive materials that will remain in Iraq. Radiological sources that continue to serve useful medical, agricultural or industrial purposes were not removed from Iraq.

The low enriched uranium will be stored temporarily at a secure DOE facility and the radiological sources will initially be brought to a DOE laboratory for further characterization and disposition.

The International Atomic Energy Agency was advised in advance of the U.S. intentions to remove the nuclear materials. Iraqi officials were briefed about the removal of the materials and sources prior to evacuation.

The nuclear research complex, now under the responsibility of the Iraq Ministry of Science and Technology, was once a central institution for Iraq’s nuclear weapons program before being dismantled in the early 1990s, following the first Gulf War. The complex was also the consolidation point for highly radioactive sources collected by the Department of Defense with assistance by employees of the Ministry of Science and Technology within Iraq over the last year.

[b]Notice that it mentioned that Iraq's WMD was dismantled following the first gulf war.[/b][/quote]

[b]Note: I don't respond to everyone because I havn't got the time, I don't spend 24/7 on this forum, I have a job and a life and this forum really doesn't mean that much to me and I don't take it that seriously.[/b]

Reza

Edited April 4, 2007 by RezaLemmyng

[Anomaly]

[quote name='musturde' post='1229240' date='Apr 4 2007, 01:33 AM']I'm confused. has this topic been off the wall or is it just me? I think there definitely needs more than just three options for this poll. The main reason would be because we can't really win from this point. Most people who are of Middle Eastern descent or know much about politics in Iraq would tell you that Iraq is gunna end up in a Civil War. Now how long our troops can keep stability within the country before this happens is another question. It kind of shocks me how most liberals(who I'm not trying to bash) are all for sending the troops home as fast as possible. I mean some of them know Iraq will be in shambles right when we leave but they really don't care. This is just cruel to me. I think any talks about the past intentons really serve no purpose now. The damage is done and we can look through hindsight and complain about it all we want, it doesn't exactly affect whether we keep our troops in or not.

Thats just my 6 cents.[/quote]That's the way of the World now-a-days. People are more comfortable looking at the small picture, thinking the big picture works out anyways. It's caused by inconsistent application of Moral Principles and giving some people excuses to violate while condemning others.
The US is sooooooo bad to have gone into Iraq, that nobody gives them any credit, meanwhile, the other countries that are supporting insurgents that are setting off chlorine bombs in marketplaces aren't mentioned. The bad decision by one party permits the immoral action of the other party.

I have yet seen one of the Catholics here look to apply moral principles to discern possible avenues of action for the future, nor give either political party a little credit for trying to do what's right.

Maybe the Repubs were reluctant to send 100,000's of troops because they had to consider the political implications of seeming like a new oppressive conqueror to the Iraqi's and the Middle East.

Maybe the Dems want to reduce provacation for violence by the US.

But what is the moral principles that should be followed? In Just War Theory, there are principles for not only starting war, but principles for waging war after it's started. In waging war, there is intent of action, and ability to carry through on the choices.
That's the sort of discussions Catholics should be engaged in, but alas, I only see short sighted political posturing from most RC Clergy. Since when did Christiantiy become a religion of Pacifism at all costs, including the cost of making the right moral choice?

At this point it's the average Iraqi citizen that is suffering the most while the World around them argues about other concerns. What will happen if the US leaves? Will Iraq spiral down into a Civil War between extremist factions? Haven't religious extremists clearly admitted to the tactic of suicide bombers and bombing mosques in order to fan the flames? Aren't their other Countries that wish to see a destabilized Iraq to increase their power or have revenge on an old enemy?

If the US stays, what can be done to increase order and security to the violence that is concentrated around Bagdhad? What is the status of the Iraqi Military and Police? What's being done to deal with infiltrators with the intent to disrupt both or use their position for acts of terror? Should the US be more patient and provide security to allow the Iraqi's more time to train their people and deal with traitors? Are time limits putting too much pressure on the Iraqi's, forcing them to deploy police and military with inadequate training and unknown loyalty? Are mandatory withdrawl schedules only encouraging those who wish to destroy the Iraqi government for their own purposes?

What frigging purpose does arguing about the exact motives of the US in toppling Sadaam serve the Iraqi people living in dire circumstances? What moral principle is served by avoiding war but allowing murderous tyranny?

[Winchester]

We need more covert operations, using our common ground forces only for keeping secure areas secure and to train Iraqi forces when SpecOps are not available for such. We also need to promote the building of infrastructure and we need to co-opt popular leaders to improve the image of Western Culture, thereby removing the appeal of being an extremist Muslim. The quiet removal of extremist leaders in ways that make appear to be religious infighting would do wonders, as would propaganda implicating said leaders in immoral acts.

We should also build a Wal-Mart or two.

[ironmonk]

A nice video montage...

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1_CepS8u9wQ&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Efreedomagenda%2Ecom%2Firaq%2Fwmd%5Fquotes%2Ehtml"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1_CepS8u9wQ...5Fquotes%2Ehtml[/url]


God Bless!
ironmonk

[RezaMikhaeil]

[quote name='ironmonk' post='1230415' date='Apr 4 2007, 08:42 PM']A nice video montage...

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1_CepS8u9wQ&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Efreedomagenda%2Ecom%2Firaq%2Fwmd%5Fquotes%2Ehtml"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1_CepS8u9wQ...5Fquotes%2Ehtml[/url]
God Bless!
ironmonk[/quote]

This I can definately agree with, the Democrates are never been consistent on the War on Iraq, [which is why I never voted for them the last several elections]. People often ask me, what I thought of John Kerry and the answer is simple: John Kerry is for the war, just like Bush but pretends not to be...

Reza

[ironmonk]

Something I have noticed, Dems need to say Republicans lie.

Republicans don't need to say that dems lie because they have video of dem contradictions.

This speaks VOLUMES. Dems lie about Republicans. There are a few bad apples which are reps, but far fewer than dem. The majority of dems in office are crooked. The minority of reps are crooked.

Anyone who is for abortion is a worthless politician and proves themselves a crook.

Dems prove themselves to be liars - therefore it's foolish to take what they say about Republicans without real research... Everytime I've done the research I've seen that they have taken it out of context or outright lied.... everytime for the last 15 years... I cannot remember ever where I doubled checked a dem's comment and it was true.


God Bless,
ironmonk

Edited April 6, 2007 by ironmonk

[RezaMikhaeil]

[color="#FF0000"][b]What are you saying that Republicans don't lie? Republicans and Democrates lie, why do you think they were able to win elections [referring to both sides] because they lie. Pretty much every politian lies.[/b][/color]