A Few Of The Many Things That I Wish Would Be Restored

[Laudate_Dominum]

edited

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='Revprodeji' post='1238843' date='Apr 11 2007, 12:54 PM']L_D,

Recommend a book. I have the Hahn liturgy book. I think I have an unhealthy balance between devotion to the liturgy, and my baptist anti-fundamentalist worry about the heart not the details.[/quote]
For some reason I think you would dig Von Hildebrand. The first title that comes to mind would be "Liturgy and Personality".

Coupled with that would be "Transformation in Christ" and possibly "Ethics". If you were to read all of his available works (in English anyway) I would consider you to be a very blessed man (and I'd be quite jealous ;-). I'm still waiting for a reply from Crosby to my email in which I sought confirmation of his alleged translation of [i]Das Wesen der Liebe[/i] (The Essence of Love).

[N/A Gone]

balthasar>>>>>>>Von hildebrand

I will need to look for the english translation on that.

[Fides_et_Ratio]

Romano Guardini's and Ratzinger's work of the same title, [u]The Spirit of the Liturgy[/u] are great reads on liturgy (and the recent book put out by Ignatius by Martin Mosebach ("The Heresy of Formlessness") is definite food for thought); however, I wholeheartedly also recommend "Liturgy and Personality" but it can be hard to track down.

[Noel's angel]

This IS like old people moaning on a porch. Somehow I don't think Jesus is looking down on the world saying "I'm so mad at the Church...all these priests facing the people, it's disgusting" (etc. etc.). I think he's more interested in the fact that we're all sitting here in our nice homes with our nice computers while, by the time it takes to write one of these posts, about 10 kids die of hunger. Maybe it's time to look at the bigger picture.

Don't get me wrong, I'm sure He's upset at clown Masses, Barney Mass etc. because they are disrespectful to Him, but the way a priest faces has no bearing on the amount of respect he has for Christ.

Edited April 12, 2007 by Noel's angel

[Apotheoun]

The innovation of having the priest face the people during Mass is simply contrary to Apostolic Tradition, and that is why I avoid Latin Churches that practice this modern novelty.

[Aloysius]

First thing, let's get one thing straight: how many people are dying of hunger has no bearing on whether or not we should be discussing these things as well. It's not mutually exclusive; it's not either we worry about the liturgy OR people die of hunger. I absolutely hate when people try to "look at the bigger picture" in order to minimize things which are important in their own right; it'd be like if a father was disciplining his child for disobeying him over some small matter and someone came in and said "come on, does this really matter? there are people starving to death in the world!" it's an utterly fallacious comparison.

Second thing, you're looking at it all wrong. I don't think anyone ever said "Jesus is upset that the priests are facing the people"; it is that we are not expressing our faith as much by the versus populum position; it is producing problems in the way people look at the mass. Tell me you do not see it; tell me you do not see a majority of the faithful with an idea of the mass much like any protestant service; who look to what the priest is saying as important and not so much what he is doing; who see the point of his prayers being so that they can hear what he says and get somethng out of it. Tell me I'm wrong in these observations... I do not think you can. This is the view a majority of pewgoes get; and the typical answer for "better catechesis" does not cut it; the most important way the people are catechized is by participating in the Liturgy.

it's a Western Innovation unheard of in Christian history (except in protestant churches) that does not express our faith about what happens in the mass as correctly.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Aloysius' post='1240253' date='Apr 12 2007, 03:16 PM'][. . .]

It's a Western Innovation unheard of in Christian history (except in protestant churches) that does not express our faith about what happens in the mass as correctly.[/quote]
I agree, because as St. John Damascene explained:

[quote]It is not without reason or by chance that we worship towards the East. But seeing that we are composed of a visible and an invisible nature, that is to say, of a nature partly of spirit and partly of sense, we render also a twofold worship to the Creator; just as we sing both with our spirit and our bodily lips, and are baptized with both water and Spirit, and are united with the Lord in a twofold manner, being sharers in the mysteries and in the grace of the Spirit.

Since, therefore, God is spiritual light (1 John 1:5), and Christ is called in the Scriptures [i]Sun of Righteousness[/i] (Malachi 4:2) and [i]Dayspring[/i], the East is the direction that must be assigned to His worship. For everything good must be assigned to Him from Whom every good thing arises. Indeed the divine David also says, "Sing unto God, you kingdoms of the earth: O sing praises unto the Lord: to Him that rides upon the Heavens of heavens towards the East." Moreover the Scripture also says, "And God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there He put the man whom He had formed" (Genesis 2:8): and when he had transgressed His command He expelled him and made him to dwell over against the delights of Paradise, which clearly is the West. So, then, we worship God seeking and striving after our old fatherland. Moreover the tent of Moses (Leviticus 16:14) had its veil and mercy seat towards the East. Also the tribe of Judah as the most precious pitched their camp on the East (Numbers 2:3). Also in the celebrated temple of Solomon the [i]Gate of the Lord[/i] was placed eastward. Moreover Christ, when He hung on the Cross, had His face turned towards the West, and so we worship, striving after Him. And when He was received again into Heaven He was borne towards the East, and thus His apostles worship Him, and thus He will come again in the way in which they beheld Him going towards Heaven (Acts 1:11); as the Lord Himself said, "As the lightning comes out of the East and shineseven unto the West, so also shall the coming of the Son of Man be" (Matthew 24:27).

So, then, in expectation of His coming we worship towards the East. But this tradition of the apostles is unwritten. For much that has been handed down to us by tradition is unwritten. [St. John Damascene, [u]De Fide Orthodoxa[/u], Book IV, Chapter 12][/quote]

[Noel's angel]

It really doesn't matter what way the priest faces...it's a matter of respect for Christ and that has NO bearing on respect. A priest coming dressed up as Barney DOES show a lack of respect for Christ. I used to be one of those people who went mad at the slightest little thing, like if flowers had been placed on an altar or other petty things. You know what? I'm glad I'm not like that anymore. I'm glad that now all I'm thankful for is being able to celebrate Mass in a wonderful Church with a community of good Christians.
Mass is my parish in no way resembles a Protestant service, and yes, the priest does face the people. It's up to us as individuals whether we allow ourselves to be distracted by the priest. My eyes are on Jesus, not the priest and as I listen to the words of the consecration I'm listening to Jesus, not the priest.
It's easy to sit and moan about other people's 'wrongdoings' and say "well if I was in charge I'd do this". Guess what, you're not in charge, and until the point in time where any of you have a position of authority that allows you to change things, DEAL WITH IT. If you think something is wrong with the way a priest is celebrating Mass, tell him or write to the bishop, because sitting here grumbling about 'the good old days' is doing no good whatsoever. Somehow I doubt the Pope or your Bishop is going to stumble upon this thread and say 'well these people want this, so let's give them what they want.' They're in charge so either leave it up to them or challenge them instead of sitting here and moaning.

[Apotheoun]

Noel,

This thread is not about "grumbling" (in spite of the theological errors presently being foisted upon members of the Roman Rite during the liturgy); instead, the thread is about discussing the liturgy with the hope that some people may learn something about the Church's tradition. In fact, that is the whole point of this thread.

Nevertheless, most of the "grumbling" that I've seen in this thread is from you, because you seem to get offended if people don't just bow down to your opinion of what should be done during the liturgy. I think St. John Damascene has a better sense of what the liturgy is about than most modern Roman Catholics. That said, if you don't like this discussion, perhaps you should avoid posting in it.

God bless,
Todd

P.S. - Just a friendly reminder . . . the title of this thread is: "A Few Of The Many Things That I Wish Would Be Restored, to the Roman Liturgy."

[SJP]

[quote name='Noel' post='1240263' date='Apr 12 2007, 06:32 PM']It really doesn't matter what way the priest faces...it's a matter of respect for Christ and that has NO bearing on respect. A priest coming dressed up as Barney DOES show a lack of respect for Christ. I used to be one of those people who went mad at the slightest little thing, like if flowers had been placed on an altar or other petty things. You know what? I'm glad I'm not like that anymore. I'm glad that now all I'm thankful for is being able to celebrate Mass in a wonderful Church with a community of good Christians.
Mass is my parish in no way resembles a Protestant service, and yes, the priest does face the people. It's up to us as individuals whether we allow ourselves to be distracted by the priest. My eyes are on Jesus, not the priest and as I listen to the words of the consecration I'm listening to Jesus, not the priest.
It's easy to sit and moan about other people's 'wrongdoings' and say "well if I was in charge I'd do this". Guess what, you're not in charge, and until the point in time where any of you have a position of authority that allows you to change things, DEAL WITH IT. If you think something is wrong with the way a priest is celebrating Mass, tell him or write to the bishop, because sitting here grumbling about 'the good old days' is doing no good whatsoever. Somehow I doubt the Pope or your Bishop is going to stumble upon this thread and say 'well these people want this, so let's give them what they want.' They're in charge so either leave it up to them or challenge them instead of sitting here and moaning.[/quote]



Do you really think that this is such a hot button issue because a couple of nostalgic Catholics are "grumbling about the good old days"???

The fact of the matter is that there are a good many people in positions of authority who recognize the need for a return to tradition:

[b]Vatican official acknowledges liturgical crisis[/b][i][/i][u][/u]

Feb. 23, 2007 (CWNews.com) -

In an unusually candid conversation with the monthly Inside the Vatican, the secretary of the Vatican’s Congregation for Divine Worship concedes that liturgical reform after Vatican II “has not been able to achieve the expected goals,” and indicates that Pope Benedict XVI (bio - news) is determined to address the crisis in Catholic liturgy.

[b]In a lengthy interview, Archbishop Albert Malcom Ranjith Patabendige Don told the Inside the Vatican that a revival of the Catholic liturgy is essential to counteract the decline in practice among the faithful, particularly in the Western world[/b].

[The full text of the interview is available on the CWN site, courtesy of Inside the Vatican]

“Undoubtedly there have been positive results” from the post-concilar liturgical renewal, the Sri Lankan prelate told interview Anthony Valle. But he quickly added that “the negative effects seem to have been greater, causing much disorientation in our ranks.”

Pope Benedict fully recognizes the crisis in the liturgy, the archbishop says, and the time has now come “with the help of the Lord to make the necessary corrections.”

Questioned about the prospects for a motu proprio in which Pope Benedict XVI would allow wider use of the pre-conciliar Latin liturgy, Archbishop Ranjith indicated that the document should be expected, although he would not predict when it would appear or exactly what it would say. “With regard to the timing and nature of the motu proprio,” he said, “nothing yet is known. It is the Holy Father who will decide.’

The challenge that the Pontiff faces, Archbishop Ranjith said, is “not so much a matter of the Tridentine Mass or of the Novus Ordo. It is just a question of pastoral responsibility and sensitivity.” He added that “if the Holy Father so desires, both could co-exist.” Wide use of the old Mass, he said, would not require abandoning the post-conciliar liturgy. “But in the interaction of the two Roman traditions, it is possible that the one may influence the other eventually.”

The fundamental challenge, the archbishop said, is stop what he called “freewheeling” liturgical innovation, and to recover the sense of the sacred. Steps in that direction, he said, would bring Catholics back into more active practice of the faith.

Archbishop Ranjith was unsparing in his analysis of the crisis facing Catholicism today. Noting the decline in active Mass attendance, he said: “We have to ask ourselves what happened in these churches and then take corrective steps as may be necessary.”

The archbishop refused to accept some common explanations for the decline in Catholic practice. “I do not think that this situation is attributable to secularization only,” he said. “A deep crisis of faith coupled with a drive for meaningless liturgical experimentation and novelty have had their own impact in this matter.”

Edited April 12, 2007 by SJP

[Noel's angel]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1240267' date='Apr 12 2007, 11:39 PM']Noel,

This thread is not about "grumbling" (in spite of the theological errors presently being foisted upon members of the Roman Rite during the liturgy); instead, the thread is about discussing the liturgy with the hope that some people may learn something about the Church's tradition. In fact, that is the whole point of this thread.

Nevertheless, most of the "grumbling" that I've seen in this thread is from you, because you seem to get offended if people don't just bow down to your opinion of what should be done during the liturgy. I think St. John Damascene has a better sense of what the liturgy is about than most modern Roman Catholics. That said, if you don't like this discussion, perhaps you should avoid posting in it.

God bless,
Todd

P.S. - Just a friendly reminder . . . the title of this thread is: "A Few Of The Many Things That I Wish Would Be Restored, to the Roman Liturgy."[/quote]

You know, I haven't once said 'my opinion is that things should be done MY way'...I'm about the only one that hasn't. I stayed out of this thread for a long time because I knew the type of things that would be written. 'Holier than thou' people wanting things done THEIR way but without the nerve to actually do something about it. This isn't about teaching people about the Liturgy at all. I'm not offended-you're entitled to your opinion. What does annoy me however is this whole idea that certain people here are right and everything else that is done in regards to the Liturgy is some sort of Protestant infiltration. That's snobbish and arrogant.
It's this attitude that pushes normal, good Catholics away from threads like this. The attitude that because things were once done a certain way, that's the way it always has to be is ridiculous.
I'm out of this thread and out of Phatmass. Some people are turning this board into something I don't think dUSt ever intended it to be. If anyone wants to contact me, I'll be at Catechetics Online.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Noel' post='1241348' date='Apr 13 2007, 07:41 AM']You know, I haven't once said 'my opinion is that things should be done MY way'...I'm about the only one that hasn't. I stayed out of this thread for a long time because I knew the type of things that would be written. 'Holier than thou' people wanting things done THEIR way but without the nerve to actually do something about it. This isn't about teaching people about the Liturgy at all. I'm not offended-you're entitled to your opinion. What does annoy me however is this whole idea that certain people here are right and everything else that is done in regards to the Liturgy is some sort of Protestant infiltration. That's snobbish and arrogant.
It's this attitude that pushes normal, good Catholics away from threads like this. The attitude that because things were once done a certain way, that's the way it always has to be is ridiculous.
I'm out of this thread and out of Phatmass. Some people are turning this board into something I don't think dUSt ever intended it to be. If anyone wants to contact me, I'll be at Catechetics Online.[/quote]
You seem to get a bit touchy (even emotional) when other people don't agree with you. Nevertheless, this thread is about things you want to see restored to the Roman liturgy. I find it interesting that none of your posts have even addressed the actual topic of the thread.

God bless,
Todd

[franciscanheart]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1240267' date='Apr 12 2007, 04:39 PM']Noel,

This thread is not about "grumbling" (in spite of the theological errors presently being foisted upon members of the Roman Rite during the liturgy); instead, the thread is about discussing the liturgy with the hope that some people may learn something about the Church's tradition. In fact, that is the whole point of this thread.

Nevertheless, most of the "grumbling" that I've seen in this thread is from you, because you seem to get offended if people don't just bow down to your opinion of what should be done during the liturgy. I think St. John Damascene has a better sense of what the liturgy is about than most modern Roman Catholics. That said, if you don't like this discussion, perhaps you should avoid posting in it.

God bless,
Todd

P.S. - Just a friendly reminder . . . the title of this thread is: "A Few Of The Many Things That I Wish Would Be Restored, to the Roman Liturgy."[/quote]
I've heard plenty of grumbling from other members. It sounds like you're trying to make her feel guilty for expressing an opinion.

[franciscanheart]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1241380' date='Apr 13 2007, 09:54 AM']You seem to get a bit touchy (even emotional) when other people don't agree with you. Nevertheless, this thread is about things you want to see restored to the Roman liturgy. I find it interesting that none of your posts have even addressed the actual topic of the thread.

God bless,
Todd[/quote]
Furthermore, she has touched on the single most prevalent topic of the thread: the restoration of the 'versus populum position'.