N/A Gone Posted April 16, 2007 Share Posted April 16, 2007 I dont have the time to rant, but I have the passion. I cant stand the modern mass that I see in my area from mulitiple church. They appear to be trying to be protestant and just doing a bad job with it. Too many middle aged women in stretch pants handing out communion and giving blessings. What the heck? I dont want Aunt May giving me a blessing. WHo is she? Does anybody have respect with what is happening? Or is it bad music with a snack? Man, makes me want to be a bishop just to spank people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonoducchi Posted April 16, 2007 Share Posted April 16, 2007 [quote name='Revprodeji' post='1245770' date='Apr 16 2007, 01:32 PM']I dont have the time to rant, but I have the passion. I cant stand the modern mass that I see in my area from mulitiple church. They appear to be trying to be protestant and just doing a bad job with it. Too many middle aged women in stretch pants handing out communion and giving blessings. What the heck? I dont want Aunt May giving me a blessing. WHo is she? Does anybody have respect with what is happening? Or is it bad music with a snack? Man, makes me want to be a bishop just to spank people.[/quote] Would a glass or two of chianti help this anger? I don't know what liturgy is like where you live, but I take great offense that you would accuse everyone of doing the Pauline missal poorly. I have never had a middle aged woman in stretch pants give a blessing, and I happen to think that the music I use is a proper blend of old and new with sound doctrine and aesthetic integrity. The liturgies I prepare follow the rubrics, using approprite and permitted modifications. There is great reverence for both the Body of Christ on the altar and the Body of Christ in the assembly. It is truly sacred time. Please, do the universal Churhc a favor and don't become a bishop. No one needs an angry rad-trad spanking people and burning bridges. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aloysius Posted April 16, 2007 Share Posted April 16, 2007 he's not exactly a radtrad. just a recent convert with a natural repulsion for a lot of things that are going on in the modern liturgy. I think a lot of the things that were taken out of the liturgy should be added at least as options, like the Asperges this thread was started about; or even the prayers at the foot of the altar or the Last Gospel... "accretions" that were taken out should be at least optional. I'm still wary of the inconsistency of sometimes using the ad orientum and sometimes using the versus populum, this is much different than variable prayers, it's the entire orientation of the liturgy and it might create more confusion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N/A Gone Posted April 16, 2007 Share Posted April 16, 2007 VatIIliturgist.. It sounds like you have a good situation and that is awesome. You are blessed. To be fair I did not say all NO mass is bad, I did cite the masses that are near me. On the plus side. I have never been called a trad before. If anything I have been called a hybrid proto/catholic because parts of me are still on the other side. The funny thing is I have spoke to you before, and even pm'd you. But you still think Im a trad? Im sad for that. The mass that I saw this weekend for an example did have the Extra-ord euch ministers, which is cool. and I think if used properly is awesome. But there were ladies all dressed like they just disco danced that were blessing children. That didnt rub right. The music we used was the same that I have played at a protestant service, just done with less quality. during the eucharistic prayer all we could hear was the rumble of crowd talk. This is the common norm in the churches around me. I drive out of state when I can, but that is tough on time and budget. The church that I read about and I made a full commitment to embrace just does not appear to exist. I would rather attend a protestant service that is genuine in spirit, than this bastardization of mass and modernism. If not for the sacraments I would have not converted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonoducchi Posted April 17, 2007 Share Posted April 17, 2007 [quote name='Revprodeji' post='1246284' date='Apr 16 2007, 07:32 PM']VatIIliturgist.. It sounds like you have a good situation and that is awesome. You are blessed. To be fair I did not say all NO mass is bad, I did cite the masses that are near me. On the plus side. I have never been called a trad before. If anything I have been called a hybrid proto/catholic because parts of me are still on the other side. The funny thing is I have spoke to you before, and even pm'd you. But you still think Im a trad? Im sad for that. The mass that I saw this weekend for an example did have the Extra-ord euch ministers, which is cool. and I think if used properly is awesome. But there were ladies all dressed like they just disco danced that were blessing children. That didnt rub right. The music we used was the same that I have played at a protestant service, just done with less quality. during the eucharistic prayer all we could hear was the rumble of crowd talk. This is the common norm in the churches around me. I drive out of state when I can, but that is tough on time and budget. The church that I read about and I made a full commitment to embrace just does not appear to exist. I would rather attend a protestant service that is genuine in spirit, than this bastardization of mass and modernism. If not for the sacraments I would have not converted.[/quote] You're right - you never were absolute. I'm heavily doped on nasal decongestants and Nyquil (good stuff) so I may have been skimming. Mea culpa! Don't be too angry over fashion-challenged EMHCs - maybe suggest them as guests on "What Not to Wear". And depending on the blessing, laity may have been permitted to do it. Without knowing exactly which blessing it is, I can't offer anything else. Protestant music isn't all bad. "Amazing Grace" is protestant. So are "Holy, Holy, Holy" and "Come Ye Thankful People, Come." Of course, "Lord, I Lift Your Name On High" and "Shine, Jesus, Shine" aren't worth the paper its printed on. If people are talking during the EP, you have a serious problem to be sure, but I'm not sure that that is a common occurrence in the dioceses of the US. (What are they talking about, anyway?) I have been to Mass in many, many places (San Francisco, Chicago, New York, Boston, Atlanta, Baltimore, Washington DC....) and overall I think we're moving in the right direction, although I'm usually at larger parishes and cathedrals. For instance, I was able to score a seat at the rededication of the Basilica in Baltimore, and I thought overall the liturgy was quite good, although the presidential singing left something to be desired Sure there are places that I've left thinking "Oy!" but I would characterize that as the exception rather than the rule. Where do you live? I'll be sure to stay away! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kateri05 Posted April 20, 2007 Share Posted April 20, 2007 [quote name='VaticanIILiturgist' post='1247025' date='Apr 17 2007, 09:05 AM']Don't be too angry over fashion-challenged EMHCs - maybe suggest them as guests on "What Not to Wear". And depending on the blessing, laity may have been permitted to do it. Without knowing exactly which blessing it is, I can't offer anything else.[/quote] layity are NEVER NEVER NEVER permitted to give blessings to those not receiving communion. ever. in fact, redemptorious sacramentum speaks to it directly, i believe. [quote]Adding more parts where the priest faces the people doesn't seem quite the way to go. When the priest faces the people, most of the time, it is when he is giving instruction "Pray my friends..." "Behold, this is the lamb of God..." Those moments don't seem to be exactly prayerful as they do instructive. The goal isn't for the priest to have face time with the people because he wants to justifiy spending money on an eyebrow waxing. The goal is for the priest and people to face each other as they pray, and in doing so, see Christ in each other.[/quote] this doesn't make sense to me, as not being prayerful moments just because they are in the imperative. in the first example, the faithful are being instructed TO pray, as a beginning to the eucharisitic PRAYER. in the second example, the faithful are being told to behold, ie worhsip and adore, the fully present Lord Jesus Christ in the Eucharist for taking away our sins. in these moments, it is an act of prayer shared together. and while Christ is present in the assembly, He is truly present in the Eucharist on the altar, and "seeing Christ in each other" is not the primary focus in those moments. the priest is representing the sacrifice of Jesus on the altar, and anything that distracts from THAT focus is to be avoided. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonoducchi Posted April 20, 2007 Share Posted April 20, 2007 [quote name='kateri05' post='1249809' date='Apr 19 2007, 11:16 PM']layity are NEVER NEVER NEVER permitted to give blessings to those not receiving communion. ever. in fact, redemptorious sacramentum speaks to it directly, i believe.[/quote] I don't think the issue was blessing after communion. I believe he just mentioned "blessings" generically. There are blessings that are licitly administered by laity. Read your "Benedictionibus." (Regarding prohibition of blessing after communion, I was not able to find anything in Redemptionis Sacramentum regarding such an action.) [quote]...and while Christ is present in the assembly, He is truly present in the Eucharist on the altar, and "seeing Christ in each other" is not the primary focus in those moments. the priest is representing the sacrifice of Jesus on the altar, and anything that distracts from THAT focus is to be avoided.[/quote] This is very true. But the Eucharistic prayer has two-fold significance. It is a sacrifice, yes, but it is also a meal. The elevation of the host at "Ecce, Agnus Dei..." is a moment to adore Christ in the Blessed Sacrament, but the prayer "Pater Noster" is a time of communal prayer and as we prepare to sacramentaly commune with each other through Christ, the presider facing the faithful seems entirely appropriate. I guess I see communion in a different way than you do. The reception of Holy Communion is a communion with the Lord himself and a way to receive the grace of his presence, but it is also a time to commune with each other, the body of Christ on earth. It is not a singular moment between the Lord and communicant. It is a moment of unity between Christ and his entire Church that we may all be one in Christ. This seems to demand focus on both the Lord in the Sacrament and the Lord in each other. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N/A Gone Posted April 20, 2007 Share Posted April 20, 2007 no, she was giving blessings to kids and to people not taking communion. But hey, maybe i couldnt hear her over the crowd noise and "God of Wonders" 3rd day music Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted April 20, 2007 Share Posted April 20, 2007 [quote name='Revprodeji' post='1249924' date='Apr 19 2007, 10:45 PM']no, she was giving blessings to kids and to people not taking communion. But hey, maybe i couldnt hear her over the crowd noise and "God of Wonders" 3rd day music[/quote] The ongoing clericalization of the laity in the Roman Rite, which intentionally confuses the roles of ordained ministers with those of the lay faithful, is truly a sad thing to witness. As an Eastern Christian I am happy to say that the Eastern Catholic Churches have so far not been afflicted with this problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N/A Gone Posted April 20, 2007 Share Posted April 20, 2007 leans towards window like a kid at a candy shop towards the tradition and respect your people enjoy. (side note, clean out ur box or pm me your email address. Im done with my thesis statement and working on my outline and i want your thoughts on it) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aloysius Posted April 20, 2007 Share Posted April 20, 2007 I think there was a responsum ab dubium which clarified that the recent practice that has sprung up in places with large protestant presences of blessing those who do not receive communion is alright so long as it is the priest doing it, but is out of place when the laity do it, and that either way it is technically superfluous because of the final blessing but is acceptable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kateri05 Posted April 20, 2007 Share Posted April 20, 2007 (edited) the eucharist is a sacrifice and a meal, but someone help me out on this: isn't the sacrificial element predominant? Pope Benedict condemned the neocatechumenal way's efforts to make the eucharist predominantly meal focused (seated at a table in a circle) it is also important to remember that our communion with each other is 110% in and through the EUcharist itself. that is the res of the eucharist, to make us one Body, the Church united in Christ our Head. It is the Communion that we receive that unites us not us being together to receive it. [quote]I don't think the issue was blessing after communion. I believe he just mentioned "blessings" generically. There are blessings that are licitly administered by laity. Read your "Benedictionibus." (Regarding prohibition of blessing after communion, I was not able to find anything in Redemptionis Sacramentum regarding such an action.)[/quote] i never said that layity cannot administer blessings, although they are obviously of a completely different character than that of priest. parents are permitted, nay encouraged, to bless their children often for protection from satan and as a reminder of their baptism. i was specifically talking about the latent abuse of not so extraordinary extraordinary ministers. as for being in RS., i might be mistaken, but i have definitely seen it quoted here at phatmass, amidst other places, so maybe someone could find it for me? Edited April 20, 2007 by kateri05 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EJames Posted April 23, 2007 Share Posted April 23, 2007 (edited) [quote name='StThomasMore' post='1224394' date='Mar 31 2007, 02:30 PM']I also believe the Novus Ordo Missæ in Laitn to be completely valid and licit (if, of course, said by a validly ordained priest with the correct matter and intent), but am not sure how licit the current translation of the Novus Ordo Missæ into English is (the intentional mistranslations in the current translation are so numerous it's ridiculous).[/quote] Christ is Risen! umm why does it say you 'dont represent the Church', and 'Separated Bretheren <Group', under your name, when your profile says you are in Communion and attend an INDULT Holy Mass of S.t Pius V th?? i recently attended up here at our local Benedictine monastery a conference on the Liturgy and the upcoming re-translation of the English Sacramentary, and the history of it all, by the Bishop of Leeds England, President of The ICEL.very interesting I would agree with you about the questionable licitness of the ENGLISH, translation of the Latin New Order Mass.. Benedicite! two words Motu Proprio! Multos Annos Papa Benedict XVI!!!! Edited April 23, 2007 by EJames Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EJames Posted April 23, 2007 Share Posted April 23, 2007 Good book recommendation, preface by the Cardinal Ratzinger [url="http://www.theabbeyshop.com/product_info.php?cPath=21_27&products_id=744"]http://www.theabbeyshop.com/product_info.p...products_id=744[/url] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EJames Posted April 23, 2007 Share Posted April 23, 2007 (edited) Good book recommendation, preface by then Cardinal Ratzinger [url="http://www.theabbeyshop.com/product_info.php?cPath=21_27&products_id=744"]http://www.theabbeyshop.com/product_info.p...products_id=744[/url] Edited April 23, 2007 by EJames Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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